Grammar schools - 1960s/1970s

In many areas, rhere were two ‘parts’ to the 11+ examination. The first part was the actual exam and the second was a further selection process, often held at the grammar school itself. Following this, the figures were ‘fiddled’ because not enough boys were making the grade. This appalling piece of social engineering sent a cohort of kids to Sec Mod and let me tell people on here who are disparaging them, we had a great education, took the Oxford GCE exams to O Level and I then went to the (horrible, ghastly ) grammar school to meet up with my year group again in the Lower V1, where I took three A Levels and went on to train as a teacher. Others in the form at Dec Mod went on to do great things.

CariadAgain

Sounds like a subject for enquiry to me that so many places had separated grammar schools. I just took it for granted that throughout my schooling there was no segregation of sexes and it carried on that way when I moved onto grammar school.

What were the excuses/reasons given for having girls grammar schools on the one hand and boys grammar schools on the other hand? Did they basically teach the same subjects in the same way and have the same expectations for both sexes?

Yep - after the school went comprehensive = there were boys in my cookery class as well and I was the only girl in the woodwork class and could have done car mechanics if I wanted to. Cue for "general" stuff and they decided to show us all a real life video of women giving birth one day - and it was duly shown to both sexes at once and I took that for granted - whilst the teachers counted out 7 pupils that reacted strongly (eg fainting) to it - 6 boys and 1 girl (no guesses for who the girl was LOL.......). I guess it was part of hammering it home to us that we were NOT "girls" - we were "people....sex irrelevant" and they found their ways to make the downsides of living a "female" lifestyle very clear to us. Hence I've been gobsmacked and angry ever since in every context if I got treated as a "woman" instead of as a "person" and hadnt realised my society was still like that and there have been "words" sometimes with offenders....

Basically - I guess I was lucky that my secondary schooling - at both points (grammar and then comprehensive) treated boys and girls absolutely equally at all points and I saw no sign of them even trying to be discriminatory. So I came out into the workforce without a thought in mind that anyone ever would try and treat me differently for being a woman - so confidently went for whatever I'd decided to go for (sex irrelevant). So the only sex discrimination I ever got anywhere was from my mother - but not from my father (who never forgot he hadnt been allowed to take up a scholarship he'd won and continue his education after 14 - because he came from a large poor family).

I have always understood single sex education favoured girls, no being dominated by loud boys but boys did better in mixed sex schools as benefitted from the environment.

Personally I found an all female environment very positive. Everything run by strong well educated women.

We had joint sixth form which was easy as the boys and girls schools were like a giant semi-detached so the sixth form corridor was open between the schools. No one under sixth form could use that corridor.

Visting family friends in the 1960s, their DD was swotting for her 11+. She had revision booklets. These were the forerunner of the past papers my DC had for their O and A
levels.

I am glad the 11+ is no longer the divider it once was. The thought of my creative DGD, with their creative spelling, having to go through what we went through, makes me shudder.

Regarding the actual papers, I had oversight of them in my time as a teacher, being the observer at a twinned school to ensure compliance of the process.
I had a copy of each paper, with the answers.
I was quite comfortable with the verbal reasoning and the maths, but the non- verbal .... even with the answers, I could make neither head nor tail of some questions.

The OP's piece looks quite odd, apparently based on hearsay, and with no mention of the considerable regional differences round the UK. In my area, most of the grammar schools were single-sex (50s and early 60s), and there seemed no great shortage of such schools for girls?

Someone mentioned the entire unfairness of the 11-Plus exam. This argument has been done to death, at some point you need to do tests/exams, some people deal with them better than others. Some people deal with all sorts of human situations better than others, those situations don't disappear because of that?!

Also, the idea of ongoing assessment has been exposed as open to all sorts of abuse. The revelation of late that AI can be used to help with submissions should make people realise that a proper exam is the only reliable kind of assessment?

My brother had to do 2 days worth of assessment tests when he applied for the RAF, and he got offered an aircrew place. What would they do if someone decided that some people can't handle the pressure of exams, let's give them a place decided by how they speak, or their name?!

Allira

Frogoet

You are in cloud cuckoo land
Of course grammar schools were not the be all and end all but many kids couldn’t pass the test at 11 because of its social content

many kids couldn’t pass the test at 11 because of its social content

I'm confused, what was the social content?

I'm wondering that as well - ie "social content" - was there "social content"?. Maybe there was and I don't remember - because my memory is so very patchy/so much blanked out until my father came out of the armed forces.

I'm rather struggling against odds to know just what went on in my life up until mid-teenage - when he finally came out of the armed forces at last - and so I guess my memory could start "clicking in and acting normal...

I was very, very fortunate with my schooling - RC primary (72 pupils in total, and a magnificent headmistress who valued every child equally) and RC Direct Grant Grammar for girls. The latter was an eye-opener for me cos I met and made friends with girls from backgrounds I could never have encountered at a local school - including daughters of diplomats - and my first experience of girls of different nationalities. I guess this is why, as an adult, I have never felt any need to discriminate or disrepect people with different colours or backgrounds. The seconday school was highly academic but we also did subjects like Home Economics and was where I learnt to make excellent pastry! The school was also a residential convent and several of the nuns taught us. Again, I found them all superb teachers

By accident (long story) I learnt at around age 14 that I had got the top mark in the whole of Derbyshire in the 11-plus exam. Nobody had said a word to me at the time (rightly so).

My parents didn't want me to go to the DG school. It was 20 miles away and meant a considerable walk, a train journey into Manchester and a bus out to Moss Side, and had an expensive uniform available only from one supplier. My parents were not at all well off, but they managed to pay for all this somehow. Many years later I learnt that the daughter of my own DD's piano teacher had got my place at the local grammar school when I turned it down, and had gone on to become a solicitor.

I left at 16 cos that was expected by my parents, but by the age of 20 I knew I could do better than basic clerical work. I fortunately got support from the Training Manager where I worked to do an ONC in Business Studies and then progressed to an Accountancy qualification, supported by the firm I worked for.

I remember the 13+ system cos my cousin took the exam and moved to the local Grammar - where he proceeded to gain just one O-level in Art! I also met twin boys in my early teens where one had passed the 11+ and one had failed, so went to different schools. The "failed" one took his 13+ but did not pass so the "successful" one switched to the sec mod cos he couldn't bear to be apart from his twin!

My own DDs went to the local primary but went to different secondaries cos of changes in the reputation of the school of my first DD by the time that the second DD was due to start - and both were excellent choices.

My GS is in his 3rd year at his secondary comp and is a very bright boy; his sister started there today and has SEN (but loads of confidence). The school has a good reputation so I have high hopes for both of them. There are grammar schools in their city too, but their parents didn't want them to go to different schools.

It's a pity that so many of you didn't have the great experience at school as I had, but I am still not clear why that was.

This was in the seventies and in an area where a lot f the children were of Asian background and used fingers and spoon.

They didn’t have saucers either, just a simple handless cup. And a cruet set was totally off the walk for them.

It wasn’t the 11 plus, to be clear. Just a test with a cultural bias.

Lathyrus3

There were other problems that were to do with social context.

Making pairs like

Cup and …..
Knife and …..
Salt and ……

I came from a very ordinary home and went to a junior school in quite a poor area but we did take past scholarship papers for a couple of years before the exam.
I took it first age 9, didn't pass, thank goodness, then again at 10.
Pairs were something that was drilled into us.

I don't know anyone who didn't use proper cutlery in the 1950s - certainly everyone seemed to have school dinners and we used knives and forks.

It was unfortunate that one of the choices was the word “bucket”.
😂 well, it's been bucketing down today! ⛈

There were other problems that were to do with social context.

Making pairs like

Cup and …..
Knife and …..
Salt and ……

Allira

Frogoet

You are in cloud cuckoo land
Of course grammar schools were not the be all and end all but many kids couldn’t pass the test at 11 because of its social content

many kids couldn’t pass the test at 11 because of its social content

I'm confused, what was the social content?

I remember a test I had to administer once in school.

It was something like

I put up my umbrella when it started to ……….

Then there were, I think 6 or 7 multiple choice words and they had to ring the correct one.

It was unfortunate that one of the choices was the word “bucket”.

Cabbie21

In my time those who passed the 11+ had the choice of a mixed grammar school, a GS for boys, or two GS for girls. Bias towards girls? The Sec Mod was not bad, it was possible to take some O levels or to transfer to GS at 13.
There was also a thriving county school of music, groups being held after school and on Saturdays. I think with hindsight we were very privileged.
I was the youngest girl in my grammar school. Not yet 11. I jumped a year twice, then my form took 4 O levels in the fourth year. I’m not sure the experiment worked as it was abandoned after two years.

Similar for me but later, after c 2 + years at a distant convent school having failed my 11 plus, a new private school opened near my home town so I was sent there. Single sex. The 25th pupil …. I was a star! They jumped me a year because I was so good at the arts…and I took my literature, language and arts O levels at 15. Passing well. But the next year taking the rest… I had missed a year of vital lessons in Chemistry, Biology etc and failed them all miserably. What a stupid thing to do to a child in my view. Later in my 20s I did an Honours BA and passed with an upper 2 ! But I will never get back my missed year!

Frogoet

You are in cloud cuckoo land
Of course grammar schools were not the be all and end all but many kids couldn’t pass the test at 11 because of its social content

many kids couldn’t pass the test at 11 because of its social content

I'm confused, what was the social content?

Lucky but depends if you wanted university

Has it not occurred to you that there was more availability in the Boys schools?
Do you have figures?

You are in cloud cuckoo land
Of course grammar schools were not the be all and end all but many kids couldn’t pass the test at 11 because of its social content

Agreed Sec Mods were blackboard jungles
I passed friend didn’t
Our lives went separate ways
So wrong

Bias against the female sexbin 60s and 70s who would have thought it lol Things improved but are fast getting as bad again

I passed the 11+ when I was 9 then 10 then finally they let me go to a grammar school at 11. Even though I passed 3 times I was told I was too young at 9 and 10. It was a girls school, highly academic and very strict. Coming also from a very strict household I didn't enjoy either but feel now that the school really gave me a head start.

I have twin friends, now 80, they both sat their 11+ on the same day. One passed and went to grammar school from where he went to University and had a good career as a government advisor.

His twin went to the Secondary Modern and left at 15. He worked for a time in a lawyer office and was encouraged to ho to night school and take his law exams. This he did and eventually made it to become a successful lawyer. As it happened earning far more than his twin.

My single-sex school didn't teach any non-academic subjects. The curriculum was exactly the same as the equivalent boys' school and we were expected to achieve as highly as the boys did. Nearly everybody went on to university, although we were constantly being reminded that there were far fewer places available at Oxbridge for young women than young men.

One advantage of a single sex school was that we saw females in senior management roles and it never occurred to us that we weren't good enough to aim for the top.

That had me just doing a quick google to ask what the average IQ was at grammar school. The reply came back of 120 (as compared to the average IQ across everyone (of 100).

So that about matched the fact that I seem to recall it was 5% deemed to be intelligent enough to go to University - until "the gates were thrown open" and Tony Bliar (sic) decided he wanted 45% more to go as well - ie 50% in total and universities basically "crashed" pretty much from then onwards....

CariadAgain As far as I remember, all the secondary schools in my area were single-sex in the 1960s/70s.

There were single-sex boys’ and girls’ grammar schools and the one mixed, which is where I went. I would have liked to go to the girls’ school as I knew one girl going there, but it was further away and my father wasn’t prepared to pay for the bus fare, he already complained enough about the cost of the uniform. My older brother had gone to the boys’ grammar and hated it, but at least a friend of his went there too.

All my primary school friends promptly disassociated themselves from me and with hindsight I wish I’d gone to the secondary modern with the rest of my primary school peers. I’d have been spared the arrogance of the staff and prefects at the grammar school, the constant reminders that we were the top 5% academically and were creamed off for our outstanding ability. What rubbish. I left at 16 with seven O Levels, went straight into an office job, and I’m sure I’d have gone to technical college (now 6th form college) if I’d been at the secondary modern instead.