Graduates on benefits claiming too sick to work

Perhaps more schools should offer T levels, a 2 year course equivalent to 3 A-levels providing vocational education option and apprenticeships.They are developed in collaboration with employers, and have industry placements.

Cossy

NotSpaghetti

My point was really that lots of courses don't and shouldn't be a "pathway" to anything.

The mistake is assuming it is (or should be).

I completely agree, education is great, learning is a lifelong experience and University offers far more than just a degree.

I'll third that.

I never understand why people not involved get exercised about others doing degrees that they see as pointless. If you can't see the value of a subject, then (a) maybe find out a bit more about it, as degrees don't get validated easily, and there will be far more to it than you realise from the outside, and (b) if you still can't understand the point, then just do something else. But why rubbish other people's achievements?

One thing an education teaches is how to separate evidence from jumping to conclusions such as that sick graduates must have been 'encouraged by teachers to take the university route'. Is there evidence for that? Did the students not have any independent thought? Influence from parents? Peer pressure? Love of a subject? Ambition? Desire to grow up a bit in a semi-supervised environment away from home? Something else?

I know you are against young people getting education, David, but come on. What makes you think your grandchildren are representative of the country at large, and how do you know what they all earn? I can't imagine discussing that with my grandparents, or my children doing so with my mother. They would be even less inclined to do so if they knew that they would be compared against one another, for whether they have 'proper jobs', their salary, and the value (in your eyes) of their education.

The days when a degree was a passport to a lifetime of secure well-paid employment are over. More people have degrees, so they don't make graduates stand out in the way they used to. This means that subject knowledge is not, in itself, enough, and graduates have to compete with one another for the best jobs. I don't see this as a bad thing. In the past, someone with a degree was often considered suitable for management roles, whether or not they had 'people skills' or an aptitude for leadership. Apart from the misery a bad manager can cause, the elitism meant that people with talent but no degree were often excluded from opportunities.

I know that there are those who don't value education other than as a way to fill technical vacancies, but luckily there are more who realise that it gives so much more - both to society and to the individual.

As regards sick pay, I think there is a case for benefits being linked to contributions, so new graduates (or school leavers) should not be able to claim until they have paid a certain number number of NI contributions. There would be problems that would have to be solved, such as what to do about those with no parental support, and those who are genuinely unable to work, but in principle I don't think that anyone should be able to claim benefits before paying into the system that provides them. I struggle with the idea that someone who has managed to get a degree is mentally incapable of holding a job. Degrees involve a lot of stress. Exams, assignments and presentations are all stressful, and someone who has juggled all of these things should be able to manage an entry-level job.

I also think that assessment methods should be made clear on application for a course (they always are, IME, but still), and there should be no exemptions on the grounds of MH. If you can't deliver a presentation, sit an exam or contribute to a class discussion you should not apply for courses that require those things. It is not fair to the majority of students who force themselves to do them, and it misrepresents the qualification. If a student has managed to get a qualification without meeting the advertised requirements of their course, it is quite likely that when they get to the workplace they will be anxious.

David, you obviously have a thing about non work related degrees as you have posted a similar point before. Education at a higher level is a useful tool in itself. It promotes self discipline and research skills which would be useful in any job as others have said. The Telegraph has it's own bias too.
To be fair, I think it was Tony Blair who pushed the university places for most without looking at improving technical colleges, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
Schools don't necessarily force children to go to university but if there are fewer other options, what would you suggest they do? Apprenticeships are not easily available either

As an erstwhile teacher I would recommend more vocational courses that are not viewed as ‘second best’ to academic courses, and bring back the tech colleges and polytechnics. Youngsters who don’t want to study Shakespeare from year 10 should be able to opt out of academic studies to study vocational subjects, is frustrating for pupils to have to study subjects they are not good at and feel frustrated with. Plumbers, electricians, mechanical engineers, roofers, hairdressers, and construction engineering etc., are well paid jobs that youngsters need and this country needs.

Grandma70s

Cossy

NotSpaghetti

My point was really that lots of courses don't and shouldn't be a "pathway" to anything.

The mistake is assuming it is (or should be).

I completely agree, education is great, learning is a lifelong experience and University offers far more than just a degree.

Agreed. A degree is education, not training.

But a degree ine engineering, medicine, law, geology, teaching, nursing etc does lead graduates in a certain direction.

Not all follow a career path based on their degree(s) but many do, or one linked to it.
Many change careers more than once in their working lives, one of my DC has having found her first career was not fulfilling

Cossy

NotSpaghetti

My point was really that lots of courses don't and shouldn't be a "pathway" to anything.

The mistake is assuming it is (or should be).

I completely agree, education is great, learning is a lifelong experience and University offers far more than just a degree.

Agreed. A degree is education, not training.

OldFrill

keepingquiet

In my nursing days we had post grad nurses and they got fast-tracked through their training. Sometimes they were completely clueless.
I once asked a nurse what she had done in her first degree and she said zoology!

This was before the days of nursing degrees? The current Graduate Nursing Scheme is for those with nursing degrees.

My DN took a nursing degree with Project 2000 in the early 1990s and that was both university and hospital based.

NotSpaghetti

My point was really that lots of courses don't and shouldn't be a "pathway" to anything.

The mistake is assuming it is (or should be).

I completely agree, education is great, learning is a lifelong experience and University offers far more than just a degree.

I couldn't access the article I'm afraid.

rosie1959

Both of my children have degrees they also have drive and ambition which sometimes appear to be lacking.
My son worked and was sponsored through his degree has changed jobs a few times gaining experience he now runs his own company which is very successful. My daughter was made redundant a couple of years ago from a very well paid job and it took her time and ambition to get back to that place. to the point of continuing to work after a serious accident where some might have gone on the sick.

Like anything in life, drive, ambition, passion and hard work, with a small amount of luck, is often the key to success.

We brought up our children to be resilient and to “get back on that horse” and try again when things don’t work out.

When working in DWP I used to do some work in schools, my mantra was: “have a plan, then a plan B AND a plan C, be realistic but have goals, don’t ever give up.”

I just think many people, across a good few generations, give up far too easily and often have unrealistic expectations.

Yes, be ambitious and aspirational but be realistic too.

My point was really that lots of courses don't and shouldn't be a "pathway" to anything.

The mistake is assuming it is (or should be).

Your grandchildren are not a representative sample, @David49 and the Telegraph always has an agenda. I imagine there is a spectrum of experiences and these are all assessed with hindsight.

Two of our five children went to Uni, age ranges 23-41 years.

Ironically the one with the least formal qualifications has the best job earning the most income. It’s 41 year old, failed A CV levels, entered as entry level into Banking, having taken a test at interview, started as a cashier, now in private banking doing extremely well, did both to take all possible banking exams across the years.

The others who chose not to go to Uni, one has all the requisite A levels and chose to go straight into work as a Civil Servant and our youngest is a musician.

Both of my children have degrees they also have drive and ambition which sometimes appear to be lacking.
My son worked and was sponsored through his degree has changed jobs a few times gaining experience he now runs his own company which is very successful. My daughter was made redundant a couple of years ago from a very well paid job and it took her time and ambition to get back to that place. to the point of continuing to work after a serious accident where some might have gone on the sick.

NotSpaghetti

ViceVersa a degree is only a wate if the person who took it thinks so.

Degrees are designed to learn about some specific area.
They shouldn't be only a "route to work" in my opinion. How sad would that be!

Obviously some degrees are exactly that but I think you should take a degree out of love and excitement about the subject.

That's not what I was saying - as I said, I would never discourage anyone from learning for the sake of it. However, I do know some people - I cited just one example - who take one course after another not out of any love or excitement about the subject but almost as a way of having to avoid the 'real world'. And these days you can get a degree in stand-up comedy - I mean, come on?

*"waste" not "wate" - apologies

ViceVersa a degree is only a wate if the person who took it thinks so.

Degrees are designed to learn about some specific area.
They shouldn't be only a "route to work" in my opinion. How sad would that be!

Obviously some degrees are exactly that but I think you should take a degree out of love and excitement about the subject.

keepingquiet

In my nursing days we had post grad nurses and they got fast-tracked through their training. Sometimes they were completely clueless.
I once asked a nurse what she had done in her first degree and she said zoology!

This was before the days of nursing degrees? The current Graduate Nursing Scheme is for those with nursing degrees.

In my nursing days we had post grad nurses and they got fast-tracked through their training. Sometimes they were completely clueless.
I once asked a nurse what she had done in her first degree and she said zoology!

There's a Graduate Guarantee Scheme for graduating nurses in the UK that supposedly means nurses are guaranteed a job on a certain pay scale. I don't know how well it works.

No nursing jobs ? Seriously ? They are crying out for them here. Tell them to emigrate!

I'm sorry to hear about your grandchildren not having found the right employment, David. I agree that not everyone is suited to university and academia .
However, I would like to counter your experience. My grandchildren are all very young, but all four of my adult offspring, and all three of my SIL, and my DIL are graduates, two have masters, and one is just finishing her PhD.
All work, have always worked, including sometimes in less demanding roles when they were looking for appropriate jobs ( after relocating, taking time out to travel, etc) . To my knowledge, none have ever claimed benefits.
Some degrees might fit your criteria of "technical skills" - two of this group have engineering degrees.
It's not as simple as graduates / no job, non graduates/ job.
Also, is it only the teacher who is responsible for the student's choices, or are parent's views part of the decision making process?

My husband has a nephew with two degrees, two masters a PHD and a PGCE.
He just loves a qualification!
He calls himself doctor but now needs a job!

There will always be jobs which require a degree, but I do think that these days, students do seem to be urged to go to university whether they have any clear career pathway in mind or not.
And, while I would never discourage anyone from learning, I do think that there are now a lot of degrees which don't really equip students for life out there in the real world. Some also seem to go for one degree after another, almost in an attempt to avoid having to get a job at the end of it. One girl who went to school with my daughter has three degrees and now works in McDonalds - I'm not knocking anyone who works there, but all that time and effort in getting those degrees does seem a bit of a waste.
And yes, there will always be a need for technical skills - we will always need skilled tradesmen. Not everyone is necessarily cut out for academic life and we should value those trade and technical skills a lot more, I feel.

How can so many go straight from uni into being "sick" without having done a day's work?