The Brainwashing Behind Going No Contact

With cards, getting it right is a combination of communication and desire to please. I mean if someone says to me "I hate writing cards I usually just text or facebook" I wouldn't send them a card even if I usually do, because I wouldn't want to give them the embarrassment of receiving a card when they hadn't sent one or the hassle of sending one when they hate doing it. And vice versa. Now whether I care or not, depends on how much that person seems to care about me. I hate sending cards but I send them to those who always remember me with a card, because they've bothered and I want to show I appreciate it. Ok this is a long winded way of saying sometimes the lack of a card does matter and does say something about how much a person didn't care. They're not just a bit of cardboard, the act of sending is a deliberate one that conveys a message.

Flump we're jumping from one thread to the next together, so jumping buddies this morning
I love cards, they mean the world to me. I always buy personal cards for all the family, with lovely words in and I write lovely words too. My ND brought me the most beautiful card this year, it must have been 2feet long I also got a lovely card from my DGD, but best of all was the one she made for me herself in playschool, so not the cost of the card, but the thought behind it. I think Ds are better at this than Ss. I save them all.

My estD made a little felt Xmas tree when she was little at infants school, with all little golden stars and such like on, it was a tree ornament and still to this day it goes on, pride of place at the front centre

celebgran I think the thing with cards is some people think they are important and some don't. I don't think there is a right or wrong. Cards don't worry me, we have never made a big deal about them in my family. I have a DIL who comes from a family where they are important, birthday cards to DIL, Grandma or whatever, if we remember you get a generic one that costs £1 not an elaborate one that costs £5 but I do try to make more of an effort with her cards because I know it matters to her.

To me it is a waste of money, bit like getting a bouquet on Mother's Day and I know they have been ripped off because the prices all go up that weekend. I know for some people those flowers mean alot.

I second your post of 22.39 regarding Bugs Fairydoll good post.

Excellent post Smileless

Thank you Rosy for your heartfelt post & Maddy xx

Just want to compliment you on your name choice bugs suits you.

Bugsy I'm shocked at the arrogance in your post. You say you've been 'more successful' in maintaining relationships with your children and grandchildren than some of the other posters, and you say that this may make your contributions more beneficial. I doubt it! You are not estranged, you don't know the pain of estrangement, you don't know the fear of potential estrangement. You have opinions, you're entitled to them, but please do not berate the estranged grandparents on here who do know the pain, and fear of estrangement, and who may find some comfort in a little ray of hope, that one day their adult grandchild/children may seek them out, much as adopted children do with birth parents.

From what I have gathered, sending cards and gifts which were returned or ignored was only done during the early part of the these estrangement. You really can only keep setting yourself up to be hurt for so long, before you have to accept its not healthy. Now, after 5 years of this treatment, Smiless has accepted the realization that she's left with very few options now to show her abiding love. So Mr and Mrs S commissioned beautifully carved personalised boxes and hope their grandchildren will one day be given them. Not to cause dissent, but because it's the only way those grandchildren can know they were so very loved. As for*Celeb*, she's had five years of keeping cards, and gifts, as has Yoga, again with the same hope. It's all they've got.None of them have said they wouldn't be able to forgive...forget yes, fear too of it happening again. So, as I've said before bitterness and controlling are words being bandied around, to insult some very brave mothers, when in fact it's an act of self preservation....protecting your heart from more and more pain than escalates year on year....Rosy.x.

You know what busgy some of the anger that you say is apparent in some posts is a direct response to the posts that you make.

I quoted from a previous post in which you stated that EP's have said "they wouldn't speak to their AC if they got back in touch unless they apologised, grovelled, dumped their spouses/whatever". That bugsy is a lie; is it any wonder that posters respond to you with anger?

You don't even read posts properly. Fairydoll has NOT been CO but unlike you, she does not assume that those of us who have been are all responsible and unlike you, she has and demonstrates her empathy with those less fortunate.

Your contributions are not more beneficial because you have "been more successful in maintaining relationships with (your) children and GC"; such arrogance. We have an extremely successful relationship with our DS and no doubt would do so with any children he may have in the future. You would do well to remember 'there but for the grace of God'.

Our ES is a man, ultimately responsible for his own decisions. He has taken the decision to exclude us from his and his children's lives and make a life for himself and them without us.

We have taken the decision to move on and make a life without him and our GC. We've said that enough is enough. There is nothing 'telling' about my saying that AC have to realise there are consequences to their actions. That's what we taught our sons when they were children; cause and effect.

I wouldn't and haven't cut off my nose to spite my face. I wont jump through hoops and do whatever it takes to have a relationship with our ES and I wouldn't expect him to jump through hoops and do whatever it takes to have a relationship with us. IMO that would make for an unhealthy and unstable relationship.

We have not let our ES down very badly and IMO there is nothing impartial about your observations. You mistake self preservation in an EP for bitterness yet never concede that an AC cutting out their parents is done out of bitterness and has nothing to do with self preservation.

We are not waiting for our GC to turn up at our door when they're 18 for a happy reunion; we accept that in all probability we will never know them. I agree that to think otherwise would be very optimistic, but why delusional? Why do you find it necessary to pour scorn on the pain and suffering of GP's who have lost their GC?

Thank you Celeb. Why was it necessary for a poster to suggest that Mr. S. should grow up because he was upset at not getting a card for Father's day? As you totally understand, yourself and Mr. C. being estranged yourselves, it means so much more to be remembered by the AC you have left in your life.

This is not a support thread, and even if it were other people are entitled to voice their opinions and when I read some of comments made, I don't find it as difficult to believe as I used too, that without any justification whatsoever, AC cut their parents out of their lives and deny their children their GP's. For some, it appears to be a totally acceptable thing to do, providing they're not on the receiving end of course.

Pleased to read that Bugsy is, quote, an impartial observer

Huh....?

Bugsy

for goodness sake read posts properly!

I have not been cut off and I do not give opinions regarding GP’s who have been.

My stance has always been that cut offs happen and there is not always a logical explanation .

I totally agree that you are entitled to your opinion, but my opinion is that you come across as judgemental and with a lack of any understanding regarding the emotional trauma that results from estrangement.

Fairy the fact that you have been cut off does not make you an expert on relationships I'm afraid. This is not a support thread and I am equally as entitled to contribute as you are. In fact my contribution may be more beneficial as I have been more successful in maintaining relationship with my children and gc.
Smileless your comment 'they have to realise there will be consequences",is very telling. It seems to me like you would 'cut off your nose to spite your own face'. Families are difficult, relationships take work and sometimes it needs somebody to be the bigger person and say enough is enough, all is forgiven, I'm ready to move on when you are. You as the parent should take that burden/responsibility.
I feel that anybody waiting for a gc to turn up at their door, age 18 for a happy reunion is dillusional or at best very optimistic.
I've no doubt that some of you have very much been let down by your children and it seems that some of you have also let down your children very badly. As an impartial observer it's difficult to ignore the bitterness that some of you hold

123flump it is v hard we can never really know what is going on inside anyone's mind except our own.

I mentioned our vulnerability I think someone said how childish to be upset about not receiving Father's Day card,

In smilless case I can totally understand it because like us when only one child is in touch it is twice as important anyone estranged can understand that.
At the back of our minds is that fear however unreasonable that it could happen again.

I think smilless it was remarkably forgiving of your d inlaw parents having been cut off to contribute towards a blessing.

It must have been difficult for them.

You would have thought with her aunt being very ill d inlaw would have understood?

I think I would have put my son and daughter before anyone else but if severe illness involved it makes a difference,

One can't go cutting people off because someone else has surely?

I saw an old friend today who is CO from father, still sees mother a little. It was the father who cut him off because he wouldn't do what the father wanted (career decision.) My friend was fuming as their sibling saw parents at Christmas and told my friend that the father felt it was time my friend tried to make amends.

Bit gob smacked as it was the dad who did the cutting off not the other way round. I suppose he is expecting my friend to apologize for their career decisions. It is hard to understand how people's minds work sometimes.

Bugsy

I failed to understand why you continue to pontificate on a subject you clearly have no idea/knowledges/understanding of.

At the time when Ed.i.l.'s mother was having a lot of contact with her sister, she was very ill and her sister was taking care of her Starlady so I guess you could say there were extenuating circumstances. That was the second time she'd cut her mother out. The first time she cut both of her parents out was prior to the wedding which is why they weren't there.

ED.i.l. fell out with her aunt when she was cutting out her parents because her aunt didn't agree with what she was doing and told her so. IMO it was wrong to give her mother the 'it's me or your sister' ultimatum and wrong for her mother to apologise for refusing to CO her sister.

Yes, she's once again back in her daughter's and GC's lives but I for one wouldn't apologise for refusing to ditch my own sister.

A few months after the wedding abroad, they were 'back in' and attended the wedding blessing having contributed toward the cost but her father wasn't allowed to make a speech.

IMO it's a serious infraction to expect some one to cut all contact with a sibling because they've fallen out with them. No one should expect a family member to CO another family member because they don't want anything to do with them.

"Is it worth cutting parents out of a wedding? Maybe ....." I'm[shocked]that you appear to regard parents being CO of their AC's wedding as relatively insignificant Starlady.

I don't think it's her mother's sincerity that anyone should be worried about, it's our Ed.i.l.'s and whether or not she'll once again repeat the offense of CO her mother because she can't get her own way.

Honestly bugsy, I sometimes wonder what threads you're reading. I have never seen a post on an estrangement thread where an EP has said "that they wouldn't speak to their AC if they got back in touch unless they apologised, grovelled, dumped their spouses/whatever".

"These grandparents need to stop the bitterness, let it go and keep their hearts and doors open and it may also help that they stop being so controlling". What makes you think that "these grandparents" aren't keeping their hearts and doors open for their GC?

And if some EP's no longer feel able to keep their hearts and doors open to the AC who've cut them out, who are you to judge? It hasn't happened to you, you've absolutely no idea what it's like. As Starlady said about decisions taken by parents, the same applies to decisions taken by AC "they have to realise there will be consequences".

Not only do you find it difficult to comprehend bugsy, I don't think you even try.

Rosy "Self preservation is being mistaken for bitterness"; spot on.

Yes starlady and we are only talking few months, but sadly ed grandad died and the only clue I have is she was v upset at how I spoke to her?
Just wish she could have told me as have said repeatedly.

Thanks bugsby that's kind of you.
I will never give up hoping and praying,

Margaret tend agree with yogagirl your comments are rather ridiculous.

Iam64. Excelllent post.
We have to accept that we can only control how we react to other people including estranged Ac we can't control how they choose to behave it's out of our power.
We just have to make most of what we have left.

It makes us vulnerable people imo as I am more sensitive to imagined slights and worry someone else will treat us badly. I guess it's damaged me and my self esteem.

I hate my daughter for heartache she caused especially for my dear husband, but will always love her tho it sounds crazy.
Just because a child estranged themselves it doesn't automatically follow they don't love you, but for whatever reason they can't carry on with the relationship.

I think most of us wanted best for our children and I certainly put all I could in raising them both.

Difference is one perceived it in totally different way to the other.

The only grain of sense in your post Margaret is it's possible if you do too much for your child they may not appreciate it.

Misadventure I think your wrong. Some estranged gp on here are saying that they send birthday cards or whatever but the AC won't see them. They are also saying that they could never forgive their A.C. and/or DIL/SIL because they've caused too much hurt - some are even saying that they wouldn't speak to their A.C. if they got back in touch unless they apologised, grovelled, dumped their spouses/whatever. Imo this is equivalent to the estranged parent cutting ties right back or at least the EP is saying that they are cutting ties unless certain things happen, which is very controlling. These grandparents need to stop the bitterness, let it go & keep their hearts and doors open and it may also help that they stop being so controlling. Maybe their A.C. will then feel able to be back in their lives.

MMT, I agree with celeb that it's very brave of you to admit that you made some mistakes. Not everybody is willing to do that. Have you told this to dd? Have you tried apologizing for those errors - without trying to explain them away? Since you still have contact with her, why not try that and see what happens?

Margaret, I wouldn't try to judge who loves whom. As Iam says parents and ac can be angry with each other and estranged and still love each other underneath. It's not mathematics where 2 + 2 doesn't necessarily = 4 etc. It's much messier than that. Or "complicated," as Inge says.

Speaking of "complicated," Celeb, it seems to me something must have happened between the time ed promised she would never keep the kids away from you and the point where she decided she would. Same with you and es' promise, Smileless.

Inge, it sounds as if your relationship with ds was going downhill a lot longer than you realized. Hindsight is 20/20, isn't it? I'm so sorry you didn't see it much sooner, but I hope it helps in some way to see it now.

Flump, I'm so sorry about your dil's mental health problems and the way that's affected her kids. TG, you're able to be there for them! I understand you have to be careful, but, imo, it's worth it. These kids need you and are very fortunate to have you in their lives.

"For goodness sake, can't the parents of AC have an opinion of their own any more and be able to express it without the fear of being CO for doing so? I'm not saying that's the case for you flump but it certainly comes across that way in many posts that appear on GN."

Yes, that seems to be the way of it, Smileless, as far as I can see. We gps can HAVE opinions, I suppose, lol, we just can't express them - not if they're about our ac's or cil's lifestyle or childrearing. Idk if knowing this would have helped you and Mr.S. avoid getting co or not, but for those of us who are not co (at the moment), it's what we have to work with. Lucky for me, dd has never threatened to co or anything like that, but I'm very careful and do my share of tongue-biting because of all Iv seen and heard.

Oh, but I'm not suggesting that edil should be held responsible for what happened with you and es. I agree with you, Smileless, that you have to hold him responsible for that.

Whoa, Smileless! Edil's mom chose her sister over her dd/edil? That's a fairly serious infraction, imo! I know the sibling bond can be strong - I'm very close with my own sisters - but unless there were very extenuating circumstances, I would always put my dd first. Maybe some parents can't or won't do that. But then they have to realize there will be consequences.

Is it worth cutting parents out of a wedding? Maybe though it seems a bit unfair to her dad. Was it worth her mom's apologizing for? Probably since it got her back into her dd's life. I just hope her mom was sincere and doesn't repeat the offense again.

But the whole story makes me think that relationships are skewed on edil's side of the family. That might affect how she sees other family relationships, unfortunately. Perhaps it somehow influenced how she sees you and Mr.S. etc.

'Being a mother is a very emotionally complicated business'
Never a truer word, IngeJones x

As estranged parents continue to love their children, I suspect most estranged children still love their parents. In many families, the love between children and parents continues despite a breakdown in relationships. What's clear is that those involved don't share the same or often, even similar views of the things that led to estrangement. Self preservations or managing to create some emotional distance from the emotional pain is something to be aimed for. It's a cliche but, we can only change ourselves and our responses to difficulties, we can't change our loved ones.

Bugs your statement I find it difficult to comprehend
is spot on, well done.

Fairydoll very good posts and it seems to be right about the C cherished are the ones doing the 'cutting out'

Margaret You spoke about rubbish the only thing in your post that I would agree with is that our AC don't love us, as if they did they wouldn't have done such an horrendous thing!

Self preservation is being mistaken for bitterness.

No two people experience things in the same way, but the more enlightened ones finally learn to accept the things that they truly cannot change. Not doing so leads to madness. Dramatic? Maybe, but nonetheless true...Rosy.x.

Sometimes in life things happen that are so painful that the only way to deal with them is to force yourself not to think about them. If that is how you are dealing with an estrangement then seeing photos or hearing news second-hand would be incredibly difficult. It might not be the perfect soluton but people have to find their own way to move on. All the estranged Mums here have tried to build bridges before reaching this point - but their efforts have been rejected repeatedly. No-on should put their life on hold while they wait for a miracle to happen