I hope it's OK to post this here. I'm sure Gransnet will move it if it's not but in view of all those estranged, cut off parents unable to understand why their adult children treat them like they do, this very well written post sums it up perfectly.
It was sent to me this morning. Obviously some AC have no choice but to keep their distance from abusive parents, we understand this. But this NC approach being liberally recommended is a highly destructive trend ruining many lives.
' I am in the position that my estranged daughter is treating me like I'm toxic when I feel it's the other way around. We've been studying this for awhile now. Why are there so many adult children cutting off their families. These are things that we came up with. Something interesting: we've all noticed how our EC all do the same mean stuff and say the same mean things. It's like they're reading a script or like they all joined the same cult.
I have news for you. They are all reading a script. They did join the same cult.
What they are doing is called "Going No Contact". It's literally a scripted plan that they follow. It starts when they judge us as not just humans with whom they disagree, but "evil" because we don't see things their way. They complain online, and meet other complaining children who honestly believe, thanks to the self-esteem movement, that any time they were uncomfortable for a moment equals abuse. If their parents disagreed with them or made them do something that they didn't like or whacked their fresh asses when they talked back or refused to follow rules, they add this to their pile of justification. Lacking coping skills, they believe that anytime they are not happy, they have been wronged, and the person who dared to 'make' them feel bad is a Narcissist.
A Narcissist to them is what 'possessed' meant to our parents. The Narcissist is pure evil and a force to be feared and hated. They all bolster one another's justification of their interpretation of who we are. They swap war stories that are positively ridiculous, such as stories of the "evil narcissistic mother in law who wore a different dress than agreed upon to the wedding" or the "evil, narcissistic mother who took away all of their toys until their chores were done". I've seen both of those in these groups.
After justifying to themselves that they are RIGHT and their parents are EVIL NARCISSISTS, they begin plans to "Go No Contact". It is a systematic plan to discard the parents/grandparent, and turn the kids against grandparents. There are actual steps to this plan. They vary from group to group, but they are essentially all similar.
The groups talk a lot about setting boundaries, but what they call setting boundaries is just rude dictating, and setting their targets up to fail. Stuff like "I told my mother that she can come over between 12 and 1 on Sundays only. If she is one minute early or stays one minute late, that will be the end of her visits." Part of the plan is to NOT tell mother what she did wrong, just to enact the "consequence". They know that the targeted parent will try to rectify the situation. They react in a way that is illogical: refusing to answer questions, insisting that any apology is a manipulative lie and therefore is insincere, ordering parent out of their house, putting parents in that time out thing where they tell us not to contact them for a certain length of time, and then they will "review our request".
They post joyful stories of their parents reaction to losing grandkids or their parents pleas for an explanation. They cheer each other on and congratulate one another for cutting family off. Refusing to give any explanation is part of the plan. They call it Taking Your Power Back.
They claim that it's to protect themselves from the evil narcissists who are terrorizing them, but in reality, it's not about protection or healing. It's about power, control, and just being shitty. They don't know the difference between assertive and aggressive, and they think being arbitrary is the same as having boundaries.
Google "Going No Contact". You will find pages and pages of groups and instructions that will not surprisingly match exactly what our kids are doing.
I think this information can be very helpful. We can learn what they want us to do, so we can do the opposite.
I strongly urge every single person here to read up on "Going No Contact". It's like a map to navigate this territory. It even gets amusing sometimes, reading the steps and thinking "You're such a lemming". Who the hell would follow this crap.
They would, that's who'
The children of the 80s were the ones who were praised for intelligence, skills and achievement rather than for kindness, manners and obedience like in our generation. I wondered at the time how that would turn out. Now we know.
Morning Polly
Definitely show her this and 'our' thread support for grandmothers cut out of the lives of their AC&GC Your friend needs help and advise from those who've been there. Reading our post will help her know what to do to try and reconnect with her Son & GC. The sooner the better, the longer it's left. the harder it is to undo.
I wish your friend luck and send her my love at this terrible time in her life, especially just before Xmas time, as mine was too 
I have a friend whose son and esp DiL have cut her off and wont ket her see grandchildren. She is distraught and doesn't know what she's done wrong. She has had horrid emails from DiL. She was in floods of tears just before christmas and I had to try not to say much about my family who we saw at christmas.
My question is tbis. Should I show her this thread , ( or tell her to google 'goug non contact' ) or would that upset her even more?
Well, to be honest I'd have preferred it if when our ES said 'I need some space' he'd just been honest and said he wanted nothing more to do with us and would never let us see our GC, because that was the reality; that was the truth.
We gave him the space he requested and apart from him coming to our home and being verbally abusive and agreeing to meet Mr. S. and being verbally abusive, we never saw him again.
Celebgran, no, no real answers. For me I just keep moving forward. I aspire to achieve indifference in the end (not sure I’ll get quite there). There is nothing to be gained from us hanging on to love and pain ?
Just hoping everyone here has good things happen to them in the New Year!
Sorry Stella I do appreciate you going through same heartache as rest of us.
There are no real answers are there?
Just to focus on those that do love and want us,
Celebgran,
This dreadful writing of xxx is just what I mean to not fight and say what can not be unheard. Maybe an open door is better?
"I Ended up with year of counselling to cope with cruel wording of ed cut off letter, she said I was rude and aggressive and didn't want xxxxxx growing up thinking that was ok, ironic really that she has accepted 9 years of gifts and vouchers without word of thanks rude?"?
Bear in mind Celebgran that “Stella the Psychologist” is going through this too! It’s too close to home for me to fully analyse and explain it! My ES and I were so very close during his childhood. Mine and their father’s worlds revolved around him and his sister. He grew-up in the knowledge that he was ‘very special’. Hard not to convey that message when you love a child so much, but he took any disagreement with him to heart as a teenager and young adult. Maybe we made him feel too special when he was little! I have concluded that, in the end, it doesn’t matter why, it’s still horrendous!
I agree starlady I. Ended up with year of counselling to cope with cruel wording of ed cut off letter, she said I was rude and aggressive and didn't want xxxxxx growing up thinking that was ok, ironic really that she has accepted 9 years of gifts and vouchers withOut word of thanks rude??Wonder her interpretation of the word.
Those cruel words did lot damage.
I do have fiery personality but have never been rude or violent or aggressive to my knowledge. I am Certainly not perfect and sure I made mistakes show me a perfect mum?
However I also have drawer full of cards letters from her up until estrangement saying how proud she was of me, couldn't cope with me etc etc, if lucky enough to have children hopes she could be half as good a mum as me? so how would you explain ?that need ask Stella the psychologist ?
Just in briefly...
Norah, I didn't say anything about your dds.
But I get your point about "unnecessary fighting. " I just see that as the lesser of 2 evils than letting the parent/gp wonder and worry. True, the fighting could end up in a co made in the heat of anger. But that doesn't have to happen. If the ac knows going in that there may be some angry words and decides not to get drawn in to a fight, then, imo, they can do this without risk of a total co. If the parent/gp gets rude or seriously emotional, ac can just end the conversation.
Also, they don't have to say the gp "isn't fit to be" a gp (unless they're truly abusive or dangerous to the child). They can just say they're taking some "time apart" or whatever.
You might still disagree, of course. So might some others.
Sadly Norah I guess my ed had to try and resort to lying to justify her behaviour? Maybe embroidering the truth is kinder way put it.
Yes surely she could have said mum we have problems can we talk about it? Surely given the 28 years I adored her and supported her in every way must count for something?
I don't think she was in good place after losing her grandad none of us were.
Little did I know that xxxxxxxx first Xmas when I sat with her on my knee trying open her gifts would be my last.
I have photo of her sitting on our stairs I hosted boxing day buffet for family and ed godparents and their mums and she was looking so cute it still makes me cry to think of it.
Dh and I were so thrilled to be Grandparents.
Sorry smilless very similar for you I know just 9 short months for us.
Never mind I treasure every memory especially Day she was born. That incredible surge of love holding this tiny baby daughter of your daughter.
Starlady correct I respected my dear late mum so much and I think of her daily despite fact she died in 1984 33 years ago! I was same age my daughter was when she cut us off well year older 29 yet had lose my dear mum to cancer not estrangement I had no choice.
I still. It's her but it was so bad when children were growing up your mum is the one person. Who has your back unconditional love and support in my case anyway.
Starlady "I agree that it's great to leave the door open. But why can't ac just say they "need some space" for a while? And maybe that they won't be keeping in touch till they "clear their heads" or whatever? Maybe even "Please don't contact me for the time being." That way, they can leave the door open without the parents/gps wondering and worrying.
I think not. My thought has nothing with time to year or if my dds have co.
It is my feeling talking may turn to unnecessary fighting. Maybe words that can not be unheard. As Celeb says "I thought we had wonderful times so imagine my hurt and bewilderment being told I wasn't fit to be a grandmother ?"
Norah, I agree that it's great to leave the door open. But why can't ac just say they - what's the expression? - "need some space" for a while? And maybe that they won't be keeping in touch till they "clear their heads" or whatever? Maybe even "Please don't contact me for the time being." That way, they can leave the door open without the parents/gps wondering and worrying.
Stella, I know what you mean. And I think that was terrible of your son - he basically became angry at you for being ill! How selfish and "entitled" is that? So very sorry.
I can see where the pictures are a mixed blessing, celeb and Yoga. But I'm glad you both got news of your eds and their kids. Sorry ed doesn't look so well, celeb. It's normal for you to worry, in spite of all, imo. You're a mum, that's how mums are. But maybe she was just tired from this busy season? Whatever, I'm sure she'll be ok.
I can't imagine anyone influencing me to co my dear late mum either. We had our differences, but I appreciated all her wonderful qualities, etc. I think of her almost every day.
But everybody is different. If a dd or ds was able to be influenced before, I suppose it can happen again. Most of them grow out of that, I think, after their teens, but I guess some don't. I imagine that in some cases, there were tensions all along, on and off, etc. (thinking of one of my egp friends and her ac). But in others, it seems, it's mostly about outside influences. Sad but true.
Yogagirl it was good to be able get your opinion on ed.
Maybe she just had flu but I worry so after he illness,
I wasn't as upset as I expected seeing little one guess I got used to being so hurt, now after so long,
No yogagirl nobody would ever have persuaded me to cut my dear mum off she was wonderful mum and I was lucky to always have good relationship with her,
My daughter was strong character like me so yes Stella u right it's got be her choice also,
I don't think she meant to lose her brother though,
That grieves me too and I still try persuade him to contact her. I know he loves her. However he has 9 years of seeing how the heartbreak has. All but destroyed me and his dad and he can't forgive her for it.
If she contacted him he promises me he would not be unkind that isn't his style but he absolutely refuses to initiate it. He loved xxxxxx like we all did and it upset him badly when it all kicked of.
No good dwelling on what is past.
Yogagirl it must have hurt seeing pictures and good you are
busy with family party today enjoy!
We quiet until new year tidying up bit decided cope without cleaner she is lovely girl but I like things done v thoroughly
?So stupid as sounds prefer do it myself timcan dh does hoovering I clean bathrooms and dust. Must not get lazy.?
Smilless hope rest break going well if umlooking in.
Lucklegs hope u not feeling to flat coming home after Xmas to empty house,
I miss Rosie so much but my ds said mum u will be so tied getting another doggie we shall see no one could replace her?
Rhinestone hope youmfeeling better across the pond and be pleased to note we got over our differences on this thread, x
Stella14 I get what I are saying and don't totally blame my s i law of course. However I do think he was major influence he always wanted to live near his family his mum has to speak to him daily so we were up against it.
My ed did seem to need me even was upset that we were 40 miles away after first babe born and I travelled weekly to seem them.
I thought we had wonderful times so imagine my hurt and bewilderment being told I wasn't fit to be a grandmother ?
Sorry will read rest posts had great. Nights sleep we opened our presses to each other yesterday dh got me gorgeous cuddly warm d gown as surprise and lots other gorgeous gifts.
Cooked gammon to perfection way too much for 2 of us but not really up to entertaining yet.
Have good day everyone
We are so happy to get a few scraps of info on our GC aren't we, seeing the pics brings a lump to your throat for all that we have missed & can never get back
Thank you for sharing that pic with me Celebgran and as I said, yes your estD did look unwell, little GD adorable though 
Strangely my ND sent my some pics [couldn't message in C as I was off to work just after] My GC are quite grown now and looks like they have changed schools again as back in a school near me 
B.i.l seeing them tomorrow I'm having a family Xmas party, so good job I will be busy 
Well Stella no one could have influenced me to cut off my lovely mum or dad, or sister & brother. But my estD was highly influenced by others, she had a really horrid friend when she was about 14yrs, had a very bad effect on my daughter. I wouldn't have this girl in my house, then one day my D convinced me to give her friend a second chance and let her sleep over. This girl thanked me by stealing my bank card out of my purse and withdraw £400. She also stole all my ND CD collect & some of my jewellery was missing. Amazingly my ND went out and actually got her CDs back, as we lived in a small village, she tracked down who had them.
Flump how awful for you, as a child seeing your loved ones die. When I was cut out, I wrote to n.s.i.l's parents, asking if they would let me know if any of them were taken to hospital or were ill, no reply of course, because they were happy with me being cut out 
and I too worried about death as I could envisage n.s.i.l killing my estD, still do!
Norah that made me laugh, re same in summer 
celebgran, I have felt angry about influences on my son too, but we know deep down that if our AC really cared about us, they couldn’t be influenced by others to cut us off. Don’t you think? ?
Mymtrigger stella 14 was reading a text on ed phone running me down apparently it was something I said when my beloved father inlaw died, I told her when she kicked off thatnit wasn't all about her her dad had just lost his father,
I was in bits too as he was a dad to me.
No discussion nothing just the awful cut off letter, not saying thanks mum for always looking out for, me, supporting me through 4 years at uni, or buying my wedding dress, or paying for private health care giving me huge chunk of deposit for house etc etc just running me down like I wasn't fit to see my Grandaughter, beyond hurtful.
However we do have reason to believe s i law was brainwashing her. He rang godparents to cut them out,
After all they had done for her it was embarrassing.
Starlady,
I understand what you are saying here
“So maybe Stella, it's not so much "entitlement" as a different threshold for aggravation. Maybe we took much more, but should we have? I feel for parents/gps who get co, but a part of me admires the assertiveness and strong sense of self that some of these ac and cil have - their complete lack of fear of standing up for themselves and saying, "No more!"
However, many parents with EAC have not been giving their AC “aggravation”. To many AC’s, simply disagreeing with them or not performing as expected (I’ll site my own example again of not making it to my son’s party when I was quite ill) is enough!
Norah I know you didn't mean to b rude or cruel you weren't no need apologise I meant it just is for anyone being cut off to be left dangling?
I realise Norah that you don't mean to be tactless.
I just agree 123 flump is cruel leave a parent dangling cut them out and they won't know what's going on, but also agree with Norah wonderful if door left open but it wouldn't be really would it? Gosh that sounds confusing?.
Lucklegs ? Sorry is hard for you.
I have been struggling a bit since a mutual "friend" emailed. Me photo of ed and youngest Grandaughter who have never seen. Then my b friend got 3rd grandchild due next July.
Ed looked unwell so of course it upset me.
Even now after all these years I worry and want help her,
yet we had wonderful Xmas must t let it pull me down,
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