Support for all who are living with estrangement

Again, not intended to offend or cause strife. Just hoping it might help a poster or two.

Perhaps even a poster who just reads and doesn’t post.

I would think any insight that might help build a bridge between the estranged would be welcome.

Hopefully someone can benefit from the article and site and reconnect.

I know it helped me.

GoodMama ....chuckle?????? What?

,Cherries Beautifully explained and expressed!!

Peonyrose - "They want to hang on to what they perceive as wrong?"

GoodMama - might this be apt? Your response to my considered and nuanced response to the article - with its superior tone of "I know best; one size or formulation does fit all" certainty and implicit judgementalism - suggests this. There is nothing amusing and chuckleworthy about relationship schisms of this sort and about the heartbreak, grievous sense of loss and other difficulties which tend to go along with them. It is surely far preferable to call for such things as keeping the channels of communication open when one party is struggling/offended/"triggered" and contemplating embarking on the estrangement path, both parties trying to improve the quality of the relationship and maintain this better quality through expressions of curiosity, willingness to listen, understanding, validation and respect for each other, the cultivation of tolerance (if there is no flagrant abuse) and acknowledging maturely that we are all imperfect beings who have character flaws and make mistakes.

I have read the article suggested, The missing missing. It explains a lot. You can't undoe the past or who or what you are. They want to hang on to what they perceive as wrong? Perhaps it is just better to honour their wishes so they can be happy. It puzzles me.

Some of the posts on here are so judgemental, I am sure posters have tried all suggestions of how to get estranged adult children to reconnect. To imply it's a strategy imported from USA, nonsense, like Donald Trump wanting Greenland. I have a close friend who this has happened to, known her for ever and her daughter and she were close once, things altered and she's out. She tried everything, but has decided she is not going to let it spoil her life, she opened up and her friends support her,she keeps busy as not to dwell, we know the toll it's taken, but what else can she do? It is very cruel to treat anyone this way, but you don't see it coming off your own child. I do think some posters have unrealistic expectations, which could come over as intrusive and interfering.Not visiting a memorial is their business and no one should be judged on that or similiar instances. If I had that, it would be time for a chat and clear the air, not estrange. Having said that I have personally heard friends critise children, who just let it bounce off as they take no notice, it takes all sorts. Whatever the reason I feel so sad for those of you ostracised by your own children. I bet deep down they must know it's wrong.

Cherries, I had to smile when I read your post. I wondered it mentioning the Missing Missing Reasons article and website would be taken in with the intent it was intended, or cause strife.

Strife is not my intention. Just the hope that perhaps it might help even one person struggling on here.

Your analysis is the article and how it does not relate to what has happened to many of these posters is in fact exactly what the article says you would say.

Just made me chuckle.

I do hope it helps someone. I found it insightful and very relevant to a lot of the estrangement discussions.

GoodMama, the proffered psychological explanation which lies at the core of "The Missing Missing Reasons" - that parents (and parents-in-law) who become estranged have probably erred repeatedly beforehand by being too concerned with promoting or protecting their own egos to notice, ponder and respond appropriately to indications of rising tension (frustration, anger etc.) in their adult children (and children-in-law) - may be apt in some cases, as you suggest, and certainly gives us food for thought. Let's beware of overgeneralising and oversimplifying matters, though.

The pattern which is often described here on Gransnet is that repeated, prior warning signs and verbal expressions of mounting friction, problems and distress were not clearly conveyed or perceptible before the seemingly sudden onset of the relationship rupture and that the complete and continuous severance of the relationship or attachment bond was not anticipated or predicted. While this could have come about because some estranged grandparents have been too defensive, self-absorbed, self-deceiving or complacent to notice, ponder and respond appropriately etc., it could also be explained by various other hypothetical, psychological processes. One size does not fit all and any licenced psychologist who states authoritatively that it does is revealing a worrying lapse of professionalism.

Thank you Madgranit would of course be a huge undertaking especially as we only moved just over 2.5 years ago but as you say, it's something to think about for the future and it's a comfort to know that it's an option if we want it.

Smileless *They're a 6 hour car journey from us and both boys as well as their parents have told us we do have family here in the UK (DS lives in Aus.) because we're a part of their family. So much so that we now have just the very small beginnings of moving down here.

It worries Mr. S. what would become of me if I were to lose him. As much as we love our beautiful home and where it is practicalities do have to be thought about.

It's been agreed for sometime that I would come down here at that time or Mr. S. would, if I die before him so it makes even more sense for us both to come down here in the near future*

That sounds like such a good plan for you Smileless. It makes sense to move somewhere where you can create a family with people who do want you in their lives. It sounds exciting for you and something to work towards!

*Cherries www.helpguide.org/articles/grief/coping-with-grief-and-loss.htm

This looks like a very helpful guide for us.*

Thanks for this Cherries I have been thinking about this a lot recently. There is a bereavement for the loss of a person in estrangement...and also if not fully estranged, there is a bereavement as one comes to realise that one has quite simply not got what one thought one had! Or maybe it is bereavement for what one expected to have or expected to enjoy, for some people! Whatever, it is a very hard process to go though for so many people.

I’ve just come across a site that might be helpful to some of you.
It helps explain some of the estrangement and whys behind it for those of you looking for answers/closure.

Google “The Missing Missing Reasons”.

It’s very insightful.

www.helpguide.org/articles/grief/coping-with-grief-and-loss.htm

This looks like a very helpful guide for us.

A living bereavement is what it's often referred too as, and a living bereavement it what it is, and we grieve for the loss of someone still living.

The emotional stages that we go through are the same as those bereaved; shock, anger and inconsolable grief.

In the early days cherries I often felt as if it was one step forward and two steps back. The frustration of having a 'good' day, only to have it followed by days of weeping and pain the like of which I could never have imagined possible.

We're on holiday near my oldest and dearest friend and have had such an out pouring of love from her, her DH and 2 adult son's that it's done our hearts and souls so much good.

They're a 6 hour car journey from us and both boys as well as their parents have told us we do have family here in the UK (DS lives in Aus.) because we're a part of their family. So much so that we now have just the very small beginnings of moving down here.

It worries Mr. S. what would become of me if I were to lose him. As much as we love our beautiful home and where it is practicalities do have to be thought about.

It's been agreed for sometime that I would come down here at that time or Mr. S. would, if I die before him so it makes even more sense for us both to come down here in the near future.

It's been a wonderful week so far. I've had the joy of cuddling my friends' 4 month old GS and have shed more than a few tears in private with Mr. S. as I've thought of our own GS's.

Good to see your posts Rhinestonehope you and yours are well x

Cherries you are so right when you describe it aas a kind of bereavement. The sadness can be quite overwhelming. I think that with your DIL you are even further down a road that we are on. But DSs commitment can get stretched to the limit, when other pressures pile in! It is so hard isn't it!

Thank you Starlady and thanks again to others who have commented in the past. It is wonderful that this forum exists to convey and receive understanding, emotional support and suggested guidance to and from each other. None of us needs to think or feel any longer that she is alone.

Virtual hugs to everyone who is affected by such bewildering, painful and prolonged relationship ruptures.

I have been following your advice, Starlady, and am taking comfort from DS's warmth and commitment to maintaining a relationship with me and DH that includes digital access and connection with him and our GC. DS seems to appreciate that we are interested, loving and caring parents, parents-in-law and grandparents and I know that we are fortunate to have a good relationship with him.

Dolcelatte, it is difficult for me also to let go of much of the anger and hurt and I suspect that this is true for most people in our situation because we find ourselves suddenly bereaved in a sense and left to struggle with feelings of rejection caused by a family member who seems ruthless and heartless. It will take time to adjust and the process of adjustment is no doubt far from straightforward but rather a case of forward a bit, back a little, plateau period then forward again and so on.

Thank you Cherries, Starlady and others for your support and very kind words. I am trying not to have very high expectations, just to see and hold my DGC will be wonderful and everything or anything else will be a bonus. I also need to let go of a lot of hurt and anger, which I am working on as I know that I need do it in order to move forward - but I am not going to lie, it is very difficult sometimes.

Smileless & hugshelp, it sounds to me as if both your ESs are very confused (sigh).

Cherries, I think you're very wise to stop reaching out to DIL. At this point, IMO, it may be better to focus on communicating w/ DS, period.

Dolcecatte, congratulations on your coming GC! Since I'm not in this kind of situation, perhaps IDK whereof I speak, but I wouldn't "assume" anything, I would ask if you should come and stay for a while (yes, I agree that booking a room would be best) when baby is born and how long you should stay. Meanwhile I get your reticence to get very involved since you were cut off once before. I would try to keep my visits as short and sweet as possible. Also, while the parents might want you to come over every day of your sojourn, please be prepared for the possibility that they may want some days to themselves or whatever and be ready to find other things to do. Hope your relationship w/ DD continues to heal.

My deepest condolences, Lindy, on the loss of your mum.

I am also very sorry about the way your DD (dear daughter) is holding you and DH (dear husband) at bay. I usually advise GPs not to compare their situation to that of the other GPs, but I know it must be hard when the other GPs live so close by and you can see your GC going to visit them.

It sounds as if DD has gotten caught up in the excitement of her ILs wealthier way of life. If this were of recent vintage, I would say, maybe the effect will wear off after a while, and she'll reach out to you and DH again. But since it seems to have been going on for some time, IMO, either there is an issue between you/DH and DD that you're not aware of or her ILs are the type of people that "swallow up" a young couple and the GC. DD may not know how to fight it. Also, since MIL wasn't nice to her at first, she may have been so glad when that changed, only to have MIL become possessive instead. Maybe not, just a thought.

"n fact my mum used to say how selfish she thought my daughter was, she was saddened by her behaviour. Countless times promises to visit were never made. "

It sounds as if there have been some issues over how often DD and family were visiting you, DH, and your mum. Unfortunately, that may have increased the coolness on DD's part. So sorry DD handled the problem by making promises she, sadly, couldn't/didn't want to keep.

How is your/DH's relationship w/ SIL? If there are any issues between you/DH and him, could that be at the core of this problem?

Also, I don't mean to be insensitive, but is it possible DD simply does not understand depression? And that this is keeping her away? Sadly, some people don't understand this condition even when it involves a family member. And it's hard for some AC, to my knowledge, to accept illness in their parents. I hope that's not the case here, but maybe.

Regardless, I'm glad you've decided to pull back and wait to see if she comes to you. I'm confident that, in time, she will... Patience.... Hugs!

It seems to me that underneath it all he loves you. He gets angry and if he didn't care he'd just be indifferent.

Pantglas1Thank you for your input. I’m appalled at all the “ american “ bashing that goes on in Gransnet in other threads as well. In all my years on this earth I have NEVER heard anyone from here bashing the Brits or Scots or whoever.
We are all the same with the same problems.

Hello rhinestone (what a lovely name!).

Halloween was never a big thing in the uk as it was always overshadowed by Guy Fawkes Night on 5 November - he’s the chap that tried to blow up parliament in the distant past and of course it is a uniquely British celebration.

I’d guess that Halloween only became popular here since the Michael Myers films which began in the 80s? So the celebration of 31 October has indirectly come from Hollywood!

Apologies for going off thread on a serious subject.

And by the way we didn’t invent that unwanted import as you say of Halloween.

“Halloween’s origins date back to the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain (pronounced sow-in). The Celts, who lived 2,000 years ago in the area that is now Ireland, the United Kingdom and northern France, celebrated their new year on November 1.”

Hedy58 As an American I am offended that you would blame us for a child’s estrangement. Really? I shutter to think of what you might blame on other countries. People are people good and bad. This is what’s wrong with the world. Blame everything on everyone else instead of keeping an open mind that we are all alike.

Quite so, Madgran77, about the sheer futility of persisting with trying to have dialogue and to exchange a few pleasantries with a person (in my case, my d-i-l who has almost totally estranged herself from me and my DH) who doesn't want to invest anything any longer in the relationship and who gives every impression of caring not a jot about the pain that she is causing. I know that I have tried all that I reasonably can and in sensitive and considerate ways to ask what triggered the sudden and unexplained change, to request that we work on understanding each other better and to convey ongoing affection, interest and empathy towards her, my son and GC (our first). Nothing has made the slightest difference to the pregnant silences, habit of walking away in an uptight fashion and to the absences that have prevailed since shortly after our GC was born early last year, broken only by icy coldness, curtly rejecting statements and shocking rudeness when we have occasionally and briefly been together.

I will no longer try to call her or send messages of any sort directly to her. Enough is enough. If she has a change of heart in the future and wants to reach out in the hope of reconciliation, I am willing (with mixed feelings and wariness) to listen carefully, reflect and see what ensues but until that day, which may never come, there will unfortunately but necessarily (for the sake of my self-protection and in support of my dignity) be nothing more from me in the form of attempts to communicate and connect with her.

There has been no reply to telephone calls and digital messages sent, for example, to wish her a happy birthday, to wish her and our son a happy wedding anniversary, to ask how she is feeling, to ask about our GC, to discuss impending visits to each other (they live overseas), to convey a little relevant family history or other info. when I thought that doing so might be helpful, to wish her and our son a pleasant holiday, to ask for some photographs of the little one and to enquire about one or two other aspects of their lives (such as their jobs). Neither has our d-i-l ever initiated any form of communication with me/us since the rupture.

Since this deeply hurtful and baffling change, there have been no expressions of thanks from her to me/us for cards and gifts which have been given and sent in the post (e.g. flowers on their anniversary, presents for her and gifts of clothing and toys for our GC. Our son has thanked me/us, however.) Basic courtesy appears to have vanished in the midst of what I can only assume is an entrenched, passive-aggressive position that has been triggered by a particular postnatal mindset or misunderstanding. The cards and gifts to our beloved GC will continue to be sent by me/us regardless.

Docelatte, I identify with your situation quite a lot. Our d-i-l is expecting again but I feel ambivalent and detached because of her attitude and behaviour. As you might predict, she has not deigned to reply to any of my enquiries about how she is keeping or to my expressions of hope that the scans will give reassuring feedback to her and our son about this baby's development in the womb. She has proffered no information at all. Based on what was conveyed last time, I think that my presence after the birth would be at best grimly endured by her for a day or two and that resentment towards me would be only too obvious, despite her denials. Her parents have said that they will visit early on so our son and d-i-l will have support. That's good news for all concerned and I'm glad to know it. When will DH and I visit them next, however? I really don't know and feel dejected and disheartened.

Oh the wonderful double bind Smileless2012 - our ES absolutely forbade any contact and cited that when I had contacted him in the past I'd talked about trivia which was no good. I eventually tried a heart-felt letter. He denied to my DH getting this but said to our DS - 'why doesn't she ask how I am or about my job?'. They make sure you're damned whatever you do.
Our DD says it's because he doesn't know what he wants. I think he's determined to be right and stay angry no matter what.