Support for all who are living with estrangement

Thank you GoodMama in the end it didn't make any difference anyway.

Smileless2012, how frustrating. I applaud you for listening to your son and giving him his requested space. I’m sure it was difficult.

These recent posts have reminded me of a very unpleasant conversation with our ES.

Having been asked to give him some space, which we did, he then accused me of not bothering with or even loving my GS who at the time was just 5 months old.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

"You can't have a dialogue with someone who doesn't want to have one."

That is so true Dolcelatte

Smileless and Lyndy, thank you so much for your support.

I agree Smileless that it would be a risk to leave your home and friends here to move to the other side of the world. Like me, you are bound to feel cautious, and rightly so. Maybe your son will move back to the UK in due course.

Lyndy, I am sorry for your pain. I have also felt feelings of shame but it is surprising how common family estrangement is. I have sometimes opened up to people I have established a 'friendship' with on holiday, on the basis that I may never see them again and/or that they don't know any of my other friends so can't spread gossip. They all have a similar tale, if not their own, then somebody they know or close to them.

Hetty and Mama, good to see some practical advice although I think most posters will have tried some of these suggestions already. You can't have a dialogue with someone who doesn't want to have one. It is really hard not to let a situation escalate and I agree that things can take a very long time to heal. Sometimes it is better to let things just be for a while, as perspective changes with the passage of time and the gaining of self knowledge and maturity.

Very wise words GoodMama. I found ways to cope with my awkward mum (and long-suffering Dad) in her later years. We'd arrange meetings on neutral ground and avoid visiting their home (as she had OCD).

So there were many outdoor pub lunches and picnics in the summer. I'd get my sister or cousins to join us. That way, people could arrive and leave when convenient. They had a choice of who to converse with, who to sit with.

There was no conflict about control of territory or house rules. Knowing that I could escape and remove the children from her presence/influence at any time was a great comfort.

Lyndyloo1, given your description of your relationship in the past the current state doesn’t make a lot of sense does it?

I’m sorry your and your DH are hurt.

All I can advise is that things change when you have a child. You re-evaluate everything in your life that touches or affects your children.

I’m not defending her or saying you did anything wrong. But can you think of anything that happened after the birth of her first child between the two of you that could have led to her distance? Any confrontation? Any possible misunderstanding?

Have you suggested meeting up with her for lunch or a quiet visit just the two of you?

If you always bring up here children when you ask for a visit perhaps she feels like you don’t have interest in her anymore, just want access to her children?

Maybe put them on the back burner while you try and rebuild a relationship with just her?

If she hasn’t outright told you something is wrong but denies you visits then something must be bothering her.

Not blaming you, just wondering.

Perhaps you could start slow and build a bridge with her.

If you see something that reminds you of her or a good memory of the two of you send her a little note in the post recounting the little story and reminder. Try and bring up her good feelings and memories of the two of you.

I’m sorry, all I can say is don’t push. Don’t ambush. Don’t only seek out her children.

Take your time, try and get her to warm up to you again so you can broach the subject and learn more gently.

Hugs to you

That's really sad Lyndylool. Maybe she takes offers of help as a threat of interference or a criticism that she isn't coping? I don't help my kids with practical stuff (apart from babysitting sometimes) but I get to enjoy their company. They know they're free to pop in anytime but I avoid formal visiting arrangements or complicated meals.

My relationship with my own mother was pretty fraught. She was the domineering, overbearing sort. Her way was the only right way too! As adults, we had to make an appointment to visit and arrive at a particular time. There was a lot of fuss about meals and tidiness as well. It's such a shame that I took her every remark as criticism (a lot of daughters do).

I don't understand this remark of yours:

'The fact she hasn't visited mums memorial garden with the GC is really the last straw for me.'

Some people visit memorials and others don't. Why would you expect her to?

Hetty58 it's not for the lack of trying, we've tried talking, all we get is that she's been busy, I've offered times many all sorts of help, all rejected with the words " no, your ok mum " I've pressed that I want to help so many times, nothing changes. I'm not giving up on my daughter as such, she has made it clear that neither her dad or I are important in her life.

Lyndylool, why on Earth don't you just have a good long talk with your daughter (rather than wondering why on here). I'd be on her doorstep demanding a chat. Otherwise, I'd write a letter, explaining how I feel and confirming how much I love her. It sounds as if you are giving up - on your own dear daughter?

hugshelp. I feel as though I don't want to tell anyone, how do you start, when for years you have put on a pretence that all is ok, in the silent hope that it will be. My daughter has been back from her annual trip abroad. I text her and asked that if she wasn't busy did she want to pop round with the children, I got told they wanted to see their friends, that was last week...since then nothing, I'm not making the call again, I want to see if she calls me. If she doesn't then my gut feel is right. It's heartbreaking, here I am at nearly 66 yrs of age full of worry and wondering what have I done wrong. Thank goodness for this site and having the chance to talk to other nans who are being treated the same. I'm glad I've got a lovely husband and two loving dogs, they are all keeping me going.my husband says that telling our friends isn't a betrayal of our daughter, she has in fact betrayed us by limiting to almost nothing our meetings with our two grandchildren. I cry when I think of all the lost baby years we have missed out on. School pantos, school sports day, firework parties, Xmas days missed, the list goes on and on.

GoodMama my daughter is 43 years of age. She has been married over 14 years. Our daughter had a really good relationship with us as a young adult, she often came away on holiday with us, shopping sprees, the usual family stuff, as a young adult she lived at home until she married. When she got married she was still in contact regularly with us, she had a lot of issues with her mil who said she only married for money. Her mil was awful to her at first. It's been over the last 10 years that there has been a change in her behaviour towards us. Ever since she had her first child.

Until I had a look at Gransnet, I'd never even heard of estrangement. Nobody in my circle has cut off any family members. Is it a recent development, I wonder? Is it an unwelcome 'import' from the USA, rather like Halloween? Whatever it is, I don't like the sound of it. Surely, families should make great efforts to get along as a good example to children?

I know how you feel about telling freinds Lyndylool - we have only told a handful of people and it's so hard to know what to say when someone you don't know so well asks. Like you we don't know anyone personally in this situation, I think I would have totally fallen apart if I hadn't found the support here on Gransnet. Just knowing it's not only us, and we probably aren't the worst parents in the world, helps more than I can say.
I too wish I understood why, a big argument or something would at least give us a reason.
It's wonderful to hear your good news Dolcelatte but I can imagine the ambivalence, I think I would be walking on eggshells the whole time. It's so difficult.

I know your questions were for Lyndylool GoodMama but I wanted to say that we had a wonderful relationship with our son, and we thought our d.i.l. too, up to the time they found out she was pregnant.

He would 'phone and or text at least once a day, often more and we saw him on a very regular basis, often more than once a week. He's in his early 30' and been married 9.5 years; we've been estranged for just over 6.5 years.

Lyndyloo1, Do you mind if I as how old you daughter is and how long she has been married?

Another quick question, you mention she had a lovely and stable upbringing. That is wonderful, good on you! What was your relationship with her like once she was an adult before she had children?

Did you see her once a month like you would like now? Did she frequently call you, respond enthusiastically to your texts?

We were the same Lyndylool*, it was some time before we told close friends what was happening and it was such a relief when we did.

They'd known us since our boys were little. They knew how we were as a family and were shocked at the way our ES had changed toward us.

Do tell them, their support will be invaluable and their reassurance that you've done nothing wrong will bring you some much needed comfort.

Dolcelatte. So glad you have reached a sort of reconciliation. I pray that it works out well for you, although I fully understand your ambivalence. Your mention of the wedding brings back my memories. We paid for everything but were treated as outcasts. We didn't sit on the table with my D and sil. At night at the pub do the in laws organised we were not invited to sit with them, we put a brave face on. My friends who were with us said that they couldn't believe what they were seeing. From that day on we have always been treated as second best. When friends have asked how the family is we put on a pretence of being ok. We haven't wanted to tell the truth as we feel so embarrassed. However, we think the time is now rethink to set the record straight. We need our friends support. They all have wonderful happy deistic ships with their families. In fact I don't know anyone personally who is treated in the way we have been. If a big family argument had taken place I'd better understand the reason. It's just all so sad.

Hugshelp, Thankyou for your support. We are going to exit now and see if she does contact us. For years it's been me every time. In today's ease of communication there is no excuse, if she wanted she could quite easily text or message us, a simple Hi mum, sorry not been to see you, but hope you are all ok, love you. That simple message would mean the world to us. I think maybe she doesn't want to say she'd rather us not contact us, do us using her indifference to us to get the message home. It's not like she works full time or anything. The fact she hasn't visited mums memorial garden with the GC is really the last straw for me.

It's such shame that this wonderful news is being coloured by your understandable concerns Dolcellatte.

All you can do is play it by ear. Once the baby is born perhaps suggest to your D that you go to see her and the baby, staying for a few days in a hotel, and ask her what she thinks of your suggestion.

In the mean time, of course keep in touch, asking her how she's doing etc. I do understand your worries about becoming attached to your GC in case in the future you become estranged again.

Our DS who lives in Aus. on several occasions has said that if he meets someone else (he's now divorced) and has children he just knows that we could well want to go over there on a permanent basis.

TBH I'm not at all sure that's what we'd do. Having lost his brother once our first GC was born, it's not a risk we feel we'd be able to take.

Lyndy, so sorry to hear about your daughter's hurtful behaviour. You deserve better, much better.

My daughter, from whom I have been semi-estranged for a couple of years, but have recently reconciled with, told me last week that she is expecting a baby. She has been in touch much more recently and chatting like her old self. She even finished her last call with 'love you' which she always used to do.

But here is my dilemma. I am beyond delighted that she is having a baby, who will be my first DGC, and that she is happy. I am thrilled for her, but I am not sure what to do in the sense of what to do when the baby is born. She lives hundreds of miles from us and very close to her in-laws, whom I have never met (only they were invited to her wedding although it was very low key, registry office, not even a ceremony - but still, it hurts, although I have managed just to express happiness and congratulations).

So, it will be awkward. And, frankly, I don't know if I am wanted. I sense that I am but to what extent I don't know. SIL is not working at present and given that her in laws are retired and living on the doorstep, I know that she will have plenty of support. I assume that DH and I will go as soon as the baby is born and book into a nearby hotel for a few days and just play it by ear. However, my feelings of joy are clouded by apprehension and the knowledge that, unlike the other GP, we are unlikely to have a close relationship with DGC growing up.

The other aspect which makes me ambivalent is that I am wary of DD now and afraid of forming too strong an attachment to the baby, in case she cuts us off again. I honestly don't believe that she will and that having her own DD will make her understand in time how badly she has hurt the family. Like Lyndy's daughter, she has a loving grandmother who was closely involved in her childhood, who is now ill with a full time carer, whom she has not contacted or visited for over three years. Ditto her sisters, who don't even know about the pregnancy yet. I am hoping that the baby will bring healing but realistically I don't know if that will happen.

So I am a bit of a mixture of emotions at present and just getting on with life. My other DDs are very loyal and loving thankfully.

I'm sorry to hear how coolly you are being treated Lyndyloo1

All I can say is that the little contact with your daughter sounds a lot better than nothing and means there's always some hope though they do sound very selfish.

Thinking of you. x

Agnurse...we didn't say anything when we were told about the children's names.
The other grand parents live just around the corner from us, they literally pass our house to see them. Whilst I can see your point that the children can see who their mum n dad want them to, we wonder why we are so often overlooked.
Prior to her marriage there were no problems, she had a loving and stable up bringing,
We have often asked to see the GC we have offered help but have always been turned down.
We have never complained how often they see their other GP
As regards mis matched expectations, we don't expect to see them every day, but once a month would be nice.
I only get to talk to my D if I call her. I text her often but the response is never very warm.
We have no idea why things are like they are.
Our D married into a very wealthy family, her in laws buy them each brand new top of the range cars each year, the in laws live in a million pound property, whilst we live more modestly, the in laws have a huge villa in Spain which my ad goes to every year. Maybe it's the money that's turned her head, we've no idea.

1. Did you say anything to her about the names when they were announced? If you said something, that may have triggered an issue.

2. How much time they spend with other people is none of your business. When I was a child, Mum's parents lived 120 miles away and Dad's parents lived 360 miles away. We saw Mum's parents every couple of months and Dad's parents 2-3 times a year. My kid sees her Mum's father semi-regularly and her Dad's parents every few years, because her maternal GF lives just down the road and her paternal GPs live in the UK while we are in Canada.

I agree that it's sad that she doesn't call to ask how you are. Then again, have you tried to make arrangements to see the GC - even with the parents present? Have you made statements to her about how much time they spend with the other GPs? What was your expectation in terms of spending time with her and her family? How much did you see her before she had children?

If your relationship wasn't fantastic before she had children, you can't expect that a baby or two will suddenly turn everything into sparkles and rainbows.

I'm not trying to dismiss your concerns per se, but I am trying to determine if this is a case of mismatched expectations and if there may have been issues that started the whole problem.

Smileless2012 indeed crocodile tears!!!!
In fact my mum used to say how selfish she thought my daughter was, she was saddened by her behaviour. Countless times promises to visit were never made.
I agree it's time to think of ourselves and get on with our lives and try to put the sadness behind.