Support for all who are living with estrangement

connection

It sounds as if what is being valued increasingly during the last few decades is a narcissistic mindset.

If it is possible to have any sort of dialogue at any stage with the person who has gone NC or highly-rule-bound (ts and cs apply)-uptight-and-restricted-contact, this might be worth trying to discuss with reference to human needs for attachment and connextion.

I read another article earlier today about cultural change that is presumed to have taken hold in the West during the 1960s and gained ground since then. What do you think about this idea? Could it suggest why estrangement seems to be happening more these days than in the past?

The writer refers to "hyperindividualism" in which, for example, people are likely to be preoccupied with their own human rights, believe that what is ethical behaviour depends on what they decide to believe (moral relativism) and think a lot about what benefits themselves and could or does already lead to an increased sense of independence/self-reliance/fulfilment/achievement/pride at being "a success" within a competitive and status- focussed social environment. By contrast, there is typically considerably less interest (it is thought) in how these attitudes and behaviours may actually affect or be perceived by others, less empathy and less concern about "the common good". Social interconnectedness is less prized, as are notions of depending on/helping/pleasing each other, the value of nurturing family relationships, respect for authority figures and older adults, the valuing of traditions /heritage/past customs and what could be gained by all concerned when individuals become more enmeshed in community life. Not surprisingly, people who pursue this type of fractured lifestyle may be susceptible to feeling lonely and isolated.

Yes, I recall your story Aquamarine. It's such a tangle of deceit and emotions. You are getting the worst of all worlds and it's not fair. Your sister's behaviour is reprehensible. Out of common decency she should leave you as GP to your natural born granddaughter. She cannot alter that you know. She may think she can and you may think she's taken everything you treasure but she can't take the blood line.

Theirs is such cruel behaviour and so hurtful to you it beggars belief. I don't agree any more with the notion that people get their just desserts. Some people believe in karma, all I can say is it's a long time coming for me!

Be very determined that you won't allow them to destroy you. Play their game (wrong word, but you know what I mean) appear to be calm when you meet but have your guard up. Cry as much as you need to, but if you feel the sadness is overwhelming you, perhaps you need to chat with your GP. I reckon you could use a hug! (((Hug)))

Ginny42.
Thank you.
My AC won't leave me alone with GC. His terms, not mine. It's along story ginny42, I posted previously but had a break from posting. My first husband had an affair with my sister, since married her. My child was 9. He was my world, even though my world had collapsed. My family just accepted it, I haven't spoken to my sister since. She's now calling my GC her granddaughter and GC calls her grandma. My sister took everything I loved. Unfortunately my AC has chosen his path, to be woven into poison. And yes last year he said he was jealous of my relationship with GC. But we just had fun and I loved my role as granny, just as my AC did with his grandparents. Strange.
So I still cry everyday. Yes I have a memory box, but nothing replaces the void. I've seen her twice since march. Normally I saw her every week.. I don't recognize my AC , think he has issues, his behaviour is outrageous... ?

Aquamarine When you say supervised, do you mean in an access centre or just that your son won't leave you alone with your GD? It must be heart-breaking to be treated like this, but you have to stick to his rules. Was he a controlling person growing up? Does he perhaps blame you for your marriage to his father breaking down? He sounds jealous. He was the centre of your world once and now he's not.

It's difficult to know what to say that might make you feel better. There are no words are there? I'm sure you did bring sunshine into her life and for now it has to be enough to cling to. Start your memory box if you haven't already done so, because you may need to show her one day how much you've missed her.

If it helps to know that someone is thinking of you, you can be sure that you are in my thoughts. xx

Awake early, missing my darling GC. Haven't posted for a while, as just everything soooo sad ? and feelings all over place ! Supervised contact, sporadically, all T&C's , my ES tells me what I'm allowed to say to GC, I'm not allowed to say I miss her, I'm not allowed to call her little miss sunshine, ? ( called her this since a baby ) I'm not allowed to phone or go to their house. You know people life is rubbish, ( mild) the hurt and pain my own AC has bought is beyond belief, irony is he was my world when younger, his dad wasn't around much , I know I bought sunlight in my GC's life, we had fun together, how cruel and spiteful people are !!

I have no advice better than any already given but withing you loads of luck Dolcelatte xx

As has been said Dolcelatte, a need for financial support certainly does put a different light on things.

If it were me and Mr. S., there would be a long way to go before we would even consider giving financial support after a period of estrangement. We would want to see if their desire for building bridges was genuine and if we envisaged any kind of future relationship.

It doesn't necessarily follow that parents of estranging AC are going to want to pursue reconciliation. That said, it's clear from your post; "I just want to see her and hug her, let her know I love her" that for you, reconciliation is what you hope for.

For me, if I were wanting to try and rebuild our relationship with our ES, giving any amount of financial support if any, would be way down on the list.

I'd want to be as sure as I could be that it was us he wanted, not our money.

Sending youand wishing you all the luck in the world that this meeting goes well.

I agree with Starlady to see in what direction your D and s.i.l. want to take the meeting. I would also suggest that you and you DH talk about how you feel about giving any financial support before you meet up with them.

Dolcelatte I can only imagine how you feel.... part scared, part happy , part skeptic.
I have read several articles about reconciliation and they all say the same thing and that is to not be defensive if accused of anything. They suggest listening and making amends even if you disagree because in the EC’s mind that is their perception. Then talk about moving on in the relationship. I know you will be loving towards your daughter. I’m crossing my fingers that all goes well and this can be a new beginning for you all.

Why do they do it Ginny? Is it a power thing?

Don't worry. We are going into it with our eyes open. I know that you can't buy love, but I love DD and want to help her. They need to know that the support will be coming from a place of love and that they can't blackmail us. I would hate to feel that I was being used. It would be over a period of time anyway. It's all very difficult though.

Yes, the "financial support" puts a different face on it, IMO. I know you and DH love DD and may want to help her out. But if she and SIL ask you to give/loan them any money or cover any expenses, I hope you two will only do what you can w/ willing hearts (and what you can afford, of course). If you can't/don't want to give them what they ask (if they do), please be prepared for the fact that they may pull away again (sigh). I hope not, but I'm afraid it's possible.

Beyond that, clearly, you know SIL even though DD didn't tell you directly that they are married. And it sounds as if there have been issues between you/DH and SIL since before he was SIL. Could that be why she didn't let you know personally that they were married (it seems she told you indirectly via your other DD)? If so, maybe that's why he'll be there - b/c he's part of the issue. I wish you could meet w/ just DD, at first, but oh well.

"On the other hand, I just want to see her and hug her, let her know I love her. Try to re-build."

I think you definitely should hug DD and say that you love her. But, IMO, rebuilding will depend a lot on how the conversation goes (which gets back to why you're nervous, I guess). I may be wrong, and those who have been through this, like Smileless w/ her ES, may say otherwise, but I think you and DH should listen first and see what direction DD and SIL want the conversation to take. That will give you and idea of why they agreed to meet in the first place. Is it just to vent? Seek help w/ finances? Reconcile? I hope it's mostly the last one, but you'll see, of course.

*parting with money!

Oh! Just seen your reference to financial support. This alters the whole scenario I think. They need some money, so they're coming with an olive branch. This is a terrible premise with which to approach a reconciliation meeting. You have to decide whether you're going to fall for this one. Don't feel pressured into party with money just to 'repair' a broken relationship.

I have that feeling with my SiL. He's watching and noting things to challenge me over later. The latest was 7 years later.

Hugs to you! Be brave. xx

I suppose what I want is for all of us to go away feeling that the meeting was constructive, rather than being unhappy and depressed.

Thanks Smileless, that's why I am so anxious, that things might get worse. SIL is very difficult to engage with, I always feel that he is watching and making mental notes and whatever I say is being taken down to be used in evidence against me later. I actually think DD would like a reconciliation but will ultimately do what he says as she thinks he knows best. However, they are looking for some financial support so that is also a factor.

I keep practising conversations in my head. Do we just chat as though nothing has happened, or simply say let's put the past behind us and start again, or do try to talk through any issues (the last is the least likely I would say).

On the other hand, I just want to see her and hug her, let her know I love her. Try to re-build.

It's perfectly understandable that you are feeling anxious in the lead up to the meeting with your EDD Dolcelatte.

My advice would be to approach this meeting with caution and no expectations. I apologise for sounding pessimistic but in our experience, sporadic contact up to this point doesn't necessarily mean there's a desire for reconciliation.

We were in a similar position with our ES about 20 months into our estrangement. Our ES arranged a meeting with Mr. S. but refused to include me, it's good that your D has agreed to see you both. His wife was not to be present, which is another difference as your D is bringing her husband, but despite this has not told you that they are married.

It didn't go well, which TBH is an understatement as rather than view the meeting as an opportunity to build some bridges, our ES merely used the occasion to vent his spleen.

There's no reason to assume that your meeting with your D wont go well, but please be careful not to hope for too much just in case.

Thanks Starlady. I appreciate your advice.

Dolcelatte, I think it's a good sign that DD agreed to meet and that there has been sporadic contact between you. That says to me that she wants reconciliation and that she's not following the "script" of completely shutting the other person/people out. If she was a little reluctant to meet up, that's probably b/c she has mixed feeling just as you do.

And I understand your mixed feelings. You don't know how this meet up is going to go.

Iv never been in this situation, so IDK, but two thoughts popped into my head as I was reading your post. One is to maybe just listen to what she has to say, and let her know you two want to think it over and discuss it among yourselves before you reply. The second is to then run it by the members here and see what they think, as well as discussing it w/ DH, before you get back to her. But others will probably have better suggestions.

So, DH and I are due to meet ED in a few weeks for lunch near to her home, which is hundreds of miles from where we live, but we are attending a party not too far away, so she agreed to a meeting, albeit reluctantly at first. She will be with her husband, although she has not told us she has married, even though it was over a year ago (she told one of her sisters). We have not seen her for over two years and there has been sporadic contact in between, with 6 months of total silence and she also moved house without telling us and only recently gave us her address.

I know I should be thrilled, but I actually feel sick with worry and anxiety about it. DH just regards it as a positive, which rationally I suppose it is, but it is going to be so awkward and I am so afraid of being hurt again. I feel by turns angry and hurt and depressed, just as in the beginning, waking up thinking about it, feeling shaky and weepy.

I just wondered if anyone else has gone through this and any advice as to how to be. DH says I mustn't overthink it and I know that he is right, but I still feel very low when I should be high, if you know what I mean.

"Another thought I had us that my X has a bad relationship with our daughter. Maybe he has poisoned our son"

Could be. Or maybe ES feels he has to distance DD in order to get along w/ X since he's living at his house. Either way, very sad.

'Would you believe he has not seen his grandchildren (DD children)since September and he could if he wanted to do so. '

Again, so very sad. But his loss, IMO.

"And here we all are estranged wishing we had that option."

Apparently, there's more than one estrangement going on, with perhaps one feeding the other, etc. I'm so very sorry. I know you would like this all resolved, and I hope it all is soon. Or, at least, I hope that ES and ESS reconcile w/ you and DH (and DD) very soon. Lots of hugs!

StarladyThank you for your suggestions. I have told DD to do what she wants. And you are correct... he could have asked to meet with her.
I just think he has some mental illness going on because he blames her but he clearly started the whole argument. Another thought I had us that my X has a bad relationship with our daughter. Maybe he has poisoned our son. Would you believe he has not seen his grandchildren (DD children)since September and he could if he wanted to do so. And here we all are estranged wishing we had that option.

Rhinestone, I don't blame DD for not asking him to meet. In fact, what I was wondering was why didn't HE ASK HER (caps for emphasis, not yelling) if he thought such a meeting was in order. That's why I said it sounds as if he was stalling or playing games. Or, as you say, yourself, perhaps he is just being stubborn. Very sad.

I agree that you shouldn't be "held hostage" in this, but I still don't think you should do any more to try to intervene. I know as a mother, it's hard not to. But ES and DD are both adults, and trying to help doesn't seem to be doing anything, anyhow. Please don't waste your time and energy. Also, IDK, but they MIGHT resolve things faster when they don't feel they can count on someone (you) to be a buffer between them. Maybe not, just a thought...

StarladyMy DD apologized twice in two different texts. She does not want to ask him to meet as she feels she already did what he asked. I’m wondering why he is so stubborn and won’t ask her. And why am I being held hostage? He should be talking to me. When I first suggested we all get together and talk the day after it happened he said I was doing her work. I’m sure he doesn’t want me to say anything to him about his lack of work for a year. But to slap my mom in the face when she has been so good to him is rude.
I fear mental illness like my brother and of course he won’t go to counseling. I feel badly that my mother won’t have her son and her only grandson at our dinner tomorrow.

Oh, about your mother -ES may have thought having dinner w/ her "covered" MDay even if that wasn't said.

Anyhow, I hope you can find others to help organize the party. Please don't expect ES to be there, he probably won't. But I hope it goes well for her, you and everyone else who attends!