How do I forget they exist?

Would you stay with a husband who said "of course I love you, I have to because youre my wife" but who didnt like anything about you?

Does it matter anyway, where the love comes from? It's still love

Of course it matters to a child, adult or otherwise, if they are told they are loved by someone who doesnt like them.

How can it not?

There is nothing nurturing about that sort of relationship. That is not how a loving relationship works or feels.

It's Crystal clear that the pair don't get on. Neither of them like each other and that's not going to get any better unless the OP looks at her own behaviour aswell as her daughters and see if maybe she could of contributed to why her daughter feels like she does.

If the OP wants the perfcet family life she is going to have to try and fix the relationship with her daughter.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, I'd be more bothered about fixing the relationship with my own child than worrying about grandchildren. They are a beautiful bonus but MY child would be my priority.

I'd be on my knees if my DD thought i was toxic, not getting my mum, partner and my sister to tell her I want to access to HER child.

There is so much hurt. That's obvious to anyone reading this but it's not going to get better unless they both stop the dance the have been dancing for years and start a fresh!

Does it matter anyway, where the love comes from? It's still love.

notanan2 that is getting into very deep waters now. Does anyone really know the difference between love and the "biological pull" caused by the shared gene pool?

We get onto the question, 'What is love?'.

Too hard.

Love shouldnt hurt. Being around someone who claims to love you but doesnt like you would hurt. Constantly.

And it is extremely unhealthy to try to tell your child that that is what being loved is. Just being needed bit not liked. I hope your children found love that doesnt hurt like that elsewhere.

No rosecarmel a parent who says they love their child but doesn't like them is not making a paradox statement. I love our ES but don't like him

Thats not love. Its biological pull , a need but not love.

If you dont love who someone is but just say you love them because of genetics/biology, they will definietly not feel loved by you.

It never ceases to amaze me when reading estrangement threads, the number of responses that appear to be either unable, or unwilling to see the situation from the parents'/GP's point of view. That the reason(s) for either reducing contact or going non contact are often petty.

From their perspective and in their opinion. It doesn't make it right.
In their opinion it's petty, it's silly, it's minimised by them into nothing.

From the person distancing themselves it's not petty or silly and it's usually the last straw. It's important to them and usually another reason to distance themselves.

And really? You can't see anywhere where the OP might not like her daughter?
How about the part where she calls her rude, disrespectful, ungreatful and a nightmare, the part where she implies her grandson hasn't shown 'bad' behaviour (by saying 'No' heaven forbid) with her yet mere hours with his mum he is showing this behaviour, or the part where she slates her partening skills, or the part where she says she can't understand why her Daughters feelings are valid.

She can't understand why her own daughter's feelings are important yet expects her daughter to show her respect and wants her feelings and hurt recognised

She is unwilling to accept her daughter is hurt and can't see why her Daughters feelings are as important as hers.

If that's how you define 'liking' somone, that's terrifying.

No rosecarmel a parent who says they love their child but doesn't like them is not making a paradox statement. I love our ES but don't like him. Do not tell me or any other poster living with estrangement that to say so is "completely false".

Seeing "many situations of estrangement through the eyes of other grandmothers (even) as a grandmother (yourself)" does not give you an insight into the hearts and minds of those of us living this nightmare.

Once again, your post is all about the AC in estrangement situations. Yes, there are of course AC who are the victims but there are also cases where it is the parents and GP's who have been victimised by their AC.

Who are these parents who "continue to separate their love from their adult child while seeking the love of their grandchild in return"? Where are they? They certainly haven't been contributing to this thread.

Twoslices you raise some very good points that all gp could think about, including me. Thanks

Smileless2012, I am a grandmother but also an adult child and a mother- I also remember being a child- I'm viewing the situation through the eyes of each-

Parents occasionally claim to love their child but not like them- However, that statement is not a paradox- It's not humanly possible to do, therefore, completely false- But what the statement reveals is crystal clear: estrangement-

Behaviors that send up red flags are the palpable results of a person's suffering, not the person themselves- And yet parents continue to separate their love from their adult child while seeking the love of their grandchild in return-

In what world would that not visit additional suffering upon an adult child?

Can I see the many situations of estrangement through the eyes of other grandmothers as a grandmother myself? Yes- And in many cases the view of their situations is limited, as it should be when claiming to love but from arms length -- then wonder how and why the situation became dire-

I think Elvive and March have offered the best advice. Good luck to you, as a family!

TwoSlicesofCake

I think you raise some very valid points.

A child or grandchild should never be someone's "life". That's unhealthy.

I also agree that going behind the mother's back is a fairly sure way to ensure that OP will never see her GS again. It also teaches a child that if someone says "no" it is acceptable to get around them.

Oh OP, I’m so worried for you!
I fear gaining access to your daughters son through his dad will backfire terribly.
I can tell you love your daughters son very much. I can also tell you don’t like your daughter much. She can tell, trust me. I’m not sure I would want someone around my son who spoke about me/thought about me like you do tour daughter.
It’s ok! You are both adults and different people, just because you are related does not mean you have to like one another. But her son is her son. She gets to say who has a relationship with him. I’m so worried of her reaction when she learns you have gone around her to see her son.
You mentioned your daughter was your whole world when she was growing up. You raised her, she was your sole focus. And you don’t like the person she was raised to be. Just think about that a moment. You mention she felt abandoned. You mention she said she wished you had found a partner when she was young and had more children.
OP, she was telling you she felt smothered. You did you best. But she knew she was your whole life and that’s a lot of pressure for a child. She wanted additional people in her life, she wanted you to had additional people in your life. Now you are just as wrapped up in her son. I understand how both of you feel.
I see you repeating the same mistakes. You should develop healthy relationships with you daughter and her son. Not seeing them should not cause you to spend a weekend depressed. This is very unhealthy for you and I worry about you so.
Now you are goon around her to see her child against her wishes. This is terrible. You will cause the issue with her to be so much worse. And you will cause issues between her and her sons dad. All because you want what you want. And what you want is her son.
Please don’t do this. It will be a short term high for you. This will make it so much worse.
Focus on your own life. With your partner and your friends. I’m not sure you ever have.
You deserve to have your own life and your own happiness. Stop making your happiness about your daughter’s son.
Find your spark, your own joy. You should be living it up! Learning, exploring, finding out who you are now that you’re not in “active child raising mode”. Learn how to do that.
I hope you hear what I’m saying and truly listen. You are getting a lot of honest advice and a lot of sympathy. I understand the sympathy feels nice, but it’s not helping you.
Step away. Build your own busy, fulfilled life around you and your partner. If you daughter comes around and wants to make amends with you, do it because it will add to your full life, not because you can make your happiness about her child and lose yourself.
I wish you the best.

I have experienced estrangement and so I can and do sympathise with JEMz. What I wanted and needed when I was estranged was to understand.

JEMz seems to me to be successful as employee, as wife, and as grandmother. Something has gone wrong in her daughter's life to cause her to be so stroppy. The usual problem is low self esteem. Maybe her little son is her one success in life just maybe?

You might have mentioned this JEMz but, I admit to having got a bit dizzy reading all the posts. Do you ever get the chance to sit down with your daughter alone - no mum of yours and no grandson? If not, would that be worth a try, so you can talk without any outside influences? Maybe even in a public place like a coffee shop where raised voices are less likely?

I’m genuinely sorry for the situation the OP is in with her daughter. No one can feel anything but sadness at the situation.
I’m also sorry that reading posts has exhausted the OP and caused her “anger” and “stress”.
However, some of us have made suggestions and observations and have received somewhat short shrift. Some have been accused of not reading through the posts (which I certainly did), and some people, Rosecarmel and March for example, have been dismissed (possibly) because they have looked at the situation from another angle - but still respectfully and aiming to help.
I do think it’s a pity that these well meaning ideas and thoughts have not been taken in the spirit they seem to me to have been given. For my own part, I wasn’t being self-righteous but was obviously assuming that resolution was the ultimate aim. I’m sorry if JEMz read it as self-righteous.

And so to JEMz I’d like to say sorry if I led you to believe I wasn’t trying to be helpful, and express my sorrow for your estrangement. I hope you can see now that we aren’t “against” you.
And to all you other grandparents in this dreadful situation, I feel for you, and wish you well in future and hope that way through eventually emerges.

Notanan, I see some validity in your point but I would say that rather than not liking her daughter, like myslf, JEMz loves her daughter dearly, but doesn't like her behaviour.
Rosecarmel, unconditional love is absolutely as it should be, but many of us have to pick our way through those who see it as something they can exploit.
Smiles, Thanks for saying what you did.

An interesting post rosecarmel. You say you have "navigated estrangement, distancing as well as reunions and have experience with patterns and cycles of behaviour", and yet your entire post is from the perspective of, and in defense of the AC.

It never ceases to amaze me when reading estrangement threads, the number of responses that appear to be either unable, or unwilling to see the situation from the parents'/GP's point of view. That the reason(s) for either reducing contact or going non contact are often petty.

Like you Opalsussanal we too were not prepared to be manipulated in the vain hope that we would be allowed to see of GC. The pain of being rejected by your own AC has to be experienced to be understood.

Really notananI've read this thread in its entirety and don't recall anything from the OP that would suggest she doesn't like her D.

You don't sound like you like her so you can't be surprised that you're not close!

I think estrangement occurs initially due to hurt feelings and that the longer those feeling are left unresolved the distancing can go on indefinitely, even carry over from one generation to the next-

I don't think it's impossible for someone to distance themselves completely from another who wasn't even the person who took an active part in causing the initial harm, but are simply a link in the chain that connects them to the individual who did do the harm-

I've navigated estrangement, distancing as well as reunions and have experience with patterns and cyclic behaviors- I know that many young mothers who enter into struggles with their own mothers lack confidence and experience but more than make up for it with courage when they take the initiative to distance themselves from the conflict-

They often distance themselves from the conflict because they feel ashamed that they find themselves employing the very same toxic behavior that they yearn to escape- Also because restoration of the relationship between mother and daughter is often treated as secondary, if considered at all, to the efforts made by the grandmother to maintaining a relationship with the grandchildren-

Unfortunately, it isn't uncommon for the grandchild as they grow to enter into similar conflicts with their grandparent that the grandparent had with their own when the above mentioned problems are left unresolved -- and after the novelty of being a grandparent to little ones wears off-

No gift exceeds that of a grandchild witnessing their grandparent lead by example when expressing wholehearted empathy, love and the offering of their full support to the grandchild's mother- There's no right way or wrong way to do it, but it is necessary "to get out of your own way" and just do it, which also takes courage, too-

Everyone fails at parenting but nobody fails at expressing love and support, no matter if the individual/s on the receiving end of it accept it or reject it or be all cold shouldered and distant or mean- It's not about expecting anything in return- It's about offering your self to another human, even if that other human throws walls up when you do-

JEMz, I felt so much empathy with your post. I have 4 fabulous children but our second daughter has always dealt with things differently than the others. Yours sounds very like our daughter who has used our position as grandparents to rebuff us and make us feel rejected, when like you, all we want to be is loving and giving.

We have 2 lovely gds but we've never felt quite on the right footing with our daughter since she was younger. There were several instances when she was much younger when things became very difficult. She ran away from home to live in a flat with some young women - one of them stole her bank card and tried to withdraw all her money amongst other things. She eventually came home after we bought her an extremely expensive gift for her birthday as I was desperate for her to return home.

She currently lives in a house with her partner's mother and she is totally in control of everything. My gchildren seem to regard her more as their mother than my daughter which is very sad to see. We have taken our gchildren on holiday and have had them over to stay since they were babies but their other grandma either arranges something for them to do in the middle of their stay with us or tops our activity with something she sees as better.

My elder daughter even lent her sister money as a deposit for a house so they could live independently but her partner and his mother ruined this by undermining the house and the area and not paying bills so they've ended up back with his mother. We have even moved house to be closer to her and my other daughter but this hasn't worked either and culminated in a huge row and her sending a text saying she never wants to see us again and if we want to see our grandchildren to contact their father. I've rung her every week or left a text and her sister who is expecting a new baby sent a scan picture to which she hasn't responded.

I feel a mixture of sadness and anger and have been told to give her some distance. I refuse to ask her manipulative partner if I can see my own grandchildren which may be wrong of me but life has taught me that situations take many twists and turns before they're resolved so JEMz, live your life, keep contact with your grandson through little letters and gifts - leave them with your parents if your daughter goes there so she can't spirit them away; make sure he knows you love him and things will change eventually. In the meanwhile - good luck.

I'm afraid that bitter remarks and comments are all too familiar on threads dealing with estrangement JEMz. You may have noticed there is a thread on this forum specifically to offer support for all living with estrangement.

Pop on and take a look.

Yes, good luck Jem

I hope for all your sakes you can sort things out