Narcissistic adult children

She is a surgeon
You probably know this one but I'll put it out there anyway....
Q-What's the difference between God and a surgeon
A-God doesn't think he's a surgeon

I started on gransnet looking for help and advice for a totally bewildering situation I found myself in.
After 2 years of d and family living with us whilst they converted one of our barns they moved out in January. I took the eldest go to school each day and following an invitation from the head to watch his class play rehearsal found myself in a situation of no further contact.
I then saw the narcissist video on this thread.
Wow. It all made a little bit of sense.
I then started to understand so much of what had happened over the past year. The more I researched the more I understood.
I now realise that I have been a victim of gaslighting and manipulation.
I got so depressed at the end of November I seriously considered suicide. I was working so hard trying to do the right thing, helping with childcare and doing all the usual home chores whilst working on the farm I couldn’t see what was happening.
I can now see I was given the silent treatment and belittled whenever I didn’t do enough in her eyes.
Remembering incidents in the past little things that didn’t make much sense at the time but I thought it must just be me.
I now realise I have never ever had an apology from her. For anything. Everything was turned to be my fault.
I now understand why her husband says yes to everything she demands. £13000 for a week in the Maldives, everything in the barn conversion has had to be new, even though we stored their furniture. His reluctance to ever get her up to have the kids in the morning.
He has experienced her tactics in the past. She left him for a while after they had been married for a couple of years because she found him boring.
She is a surgeon.
I realise I’ve gone on rather.
I wanted to say that she isn’t diagnosed and never will be as she would never allow it to happen.
But I recognise all the traits and I’ve been her victim.
They chose to live with us. They could have moved out at any time
she used us. And when she had taken all she could discarded us.

Nonnie, I just wrote a brilliant and thoughtful reply to you only to lose it! ;) So I will have to wing it...

I agree with you there are always exceptions. We are human after all.

I want to mention that I do believe in mental health and a narcissism diagnosis. (Didn't want you thinking I stick my head in the sand and live in a world of puppy dogs and rainbows ;) )

However, I don't believe there is an epidemic of narcissism with either the current parent generation or the current grandparent generation, despite what both will claim.

I think there is a natural conflict between generations, those who have "been there and done that" and want to share their experience and believe that those who follow behind them should listen to their point of view. And those who want to chart their own course, have their own interpretation of their up bringing and are willing to make their own mistakes as they do so.

Neither is wrong. Often times conflicts arise between these generations due to "mis-matched expectations" and poor communication. I am certainly guilty of both of these in my life. All I can do is learn from my mistakes and do my best not to repeat them.

However, I think there is a new dynamic at play in the current Adult Child/Grandparent relationship that other PP have wisely pointed out.

That is the internet and all that comes with it. Instant communication, social media, access to blogs, boards and support sites.

I think these things can all fuel the fire and create tension and issues where there didn't use to be.

If you would allow me to explain:

Instant communication - we all know these days when you call or text t someone they are almost always alerted immediately. After all, don't we (almost all of us) have phone in our hands or on our person at all times? So, when calls are not picked up or text messages are not immediately returned feelings get hurt. Just like we get irritated when people call us often when we believe they know we are busy (working, dinner time, kids bath time, etc).

Social media - Never before have we had such an intimate peak into the lives of other people. There are wonderful things about social media. Being able to connect and stay connected with friends and family is the biggest I can think of. But it's ripe for hurt feelings and miscommunication. Parents get upset when grandparents share or over share info/pics about their children. Grandparents get upset to see activities they were not invited too, or the "other" grandparents getting time they didn't. These were not issues before the web.

Blogs and support boards - We see it all the time, on both grandparent support boards and parent support boards .... the echo chamber. Support is wonderful, please don't get be wrong. But I often feel on these boards that people post one sided stories looking to vent and commiserate with one another. Rarely is actual constructive and helpful advice given, more times than not its fueling the OPs fire and then a story about their own experience of how they too can relate. While comforting, I doubt this helps the OP make the changes they need to to fix the problem (the problem, of course, not always the OP. But the only person the OP can control is themself, so thats where the change needs to be).

These are echo chambers, fueling the fire and inevitably the "narcissist" label gets thrown out, everyone agrees there is nothing to be done about the unreasonable person and moves on to the next thread. But the poor OP is left without help. I feel like in generations past, to your point, grandparents most certainly complained about their AC. But, they didn't do it to a message board will of like minded strangers. They (I'm sure carefully) complained to their family and close friends, whom no doubt also had a relationship with their AC and could offer constructive support or guidance to help the OP. I imagine many situations were defused this way, as opposed to today where the anonymity of the internet and access of like minded, equally hurt and wounded souls just fuels their fire.

(Again, this happens on both MIL/Grandparent and DIL/Adult Child boards). There is one board out there that I've seen that really holds the OP accountable for their own role in the issue and encourages communication. It's a tough love board for Adult Children dealing with MIL/Grandparent issues - it can be rough, but they really help.

Phew! So, I suppose what I'm saying is that I do believe it's generally a generational issue. But there are exceptions for true narcissism, though rare. But overall, I think we are human and people felt the way we feel now in previous generations and will feel the way we feel now in future generations. It just seems worse at times due to our changing world. But people don't change, IMO.

Meeyoo in other words she likes undermining the authority of the parents?
I don't think she meant that, just getting enjoyment from things the grandchildren will enjoy.
She's a very nice person, with a large family who treat her as a bit of an eccentric, as I said, and I expect they tolerate a bit of annoyance because it's outweighed by her good qualities.

Nonnie, somehow, I just saw your reply to me. Thank you for clarifying!

March, I think that's it. We hear more about the nasty ILs in forums like this b/c that's who people vent or ask advice about. We have to be careful, IMO, not to start thinking that all IL relationships are like this. Then again, I think we can take away some good ideas about how to keep our parent/AC and PIL/CIL relationships working well.

I think there's more nice people than there are nasty, but no one posts asking for advice on how to deal with nice people.

GM I'm sorry but I really don't see it as that clear cut. Our parents complained about some things but I don't know any who complained about their AC, some were however more supportive than others. I worked hard in a way I don't think anyone would today to make it work with Mil and Fil and it wasn't easy.

I have never put a nasty label on my dils and never would and I would be very surprised if they did about me. Perhaps the difference is that they both come from strong families who believe in family life? My local dil whose parents are a long way away sees me as a close second mum. The other one just as Nonnie and a good place to go for a holiday. Surely there are a lot more people like us than the nasty people referred to?

Perhaps b/c it puts things in a certain perspective, GoodMama...

Isn’t it funny how each generation thinks the one that follows it is lazy, self absorbed, disrespectful and has it so much easier than they did.

And the next generation seems to think the previous one is stubborn, disrespectful, out of touch and judgmental.

We both put labels on each other, including narcissist.

I imagine that 3 generations ago this was the conversation around the table while sipping after dinner cocktails about their children and grandchildren.

Just as I imagine that 3 generations from now there will be the same conversations about their parents and grandparents.

Oddly, it gives me peace knowing this.

Starlady perhaps I didn't put it very well, I wasn't suggesting it was anything to do with narcissism, more a generational thing. I even heard a newsreader on R4 say it two days ago! I haven't ever heard anyone of my generation say it.

My DC were also brought up with good grammar but in this instance it was about putting others first. No, I don't think it is 'new grammar', I think it is a new attitude. I think the way 'myself' is used now is 'new grammar'.

"Think about us being brought up to say 'X and I did whatever' but now it is 'me and X did whatever'."

Um, my DD was taught to say "X and I..." The "me and X" some young people say is still bad grammar, as far as I know, not some kind of "new grammar." And I knew some people in our generation who said "me and X," whenever they weren't in class. I hardly think it's a sign of narcissism.

Exactly! The things they suspect and accuse others of shows that they think their behaviour and ways of thinking is the norm not the exception!

I totally agree notanan. A narcissist isn't going to accept there is anything wrong with them so won't go to a doctor. it will always be someone else's fault. The one I know accuses people of thinking all sorts of things which would never occur to them but it shows the way the narcissist thinks. This person alludes to all sorts of bad behaviour in others and get people to believe it but never actually gives examples. Very manipulative.

Yes, folks, I'm sure there must be some GPs who are not very understanding but my suspicion is that there are a lot less than controlling ACs. Just think about the difference in life now to when most of us became parents. We didn't put ourselves and our wishes before everyone else. Think about us being brought up to say 'X and I did whatever' but now it is 'me and X did whatever'. I think that explains quite a lot although I am luckier with my dils that doesn't mean I don't understand those less fortunate.

It has now appeared in fairly common usage which surprises me as it is a very rare personality disorder.

Rarely diagnosed is not the same thing as rare

By definition, a narcissist is unlikely to present themselves for assessment as they wont consider themselves to be the problem. Therefore diagnosis is very unlikely in mosr cases

Ocassionally it is diagnosed as an incidental finding when they present for otherreasons

If you asked a lot of those people why they thought they had a poor relationship the adult children but most likely be blamed because they were just doing what grandparents do

Nonnie, Not every grandparent is able to give up and except that they aren’t the active parent of a small child anymore. They aren’t able to accept that new parents Doing things differently isn’t a slight to them.

"Ooh, I like to do those things."
Crikey was she saying that she likes doing things that she knows the child's parents don't want her to do, or in other words she likes undermining the authority of the parents?

I really don't think I am much different to any other GP, surely?'

I can't speak for every other grandparent. I dont think it matters about the 'grandparent' title. I think its just down to the person, but my MIL asked her son if he was sure the baby was his, discussed my personal medical information with all of my step FILs side, started an argument with us when I was in labour, complained that once a week seeing her wasn't enough, complained that she shouldn't have to 'book an appointment' with him and we should be available whenever she wants to see DD and made DD ill by smoking around her. I could go on really.
Whatever happened, it wasnt good enough and it what she what she wanted so she would complain about me to her son. That went down like a lead balloon.

She doesnt tell people those parts though. Just that I'm controlling and DH is in a controlling marriage.
That's why she doesn't see him and her grandchildren. It's all me.

I don't know if she's a narcissist but I've never met anyone like her before. She's utterly exhausting.

Some people just aren't reasonable.

I really don't think I am much different to any other GP, surely?

How would you know?

I recently commented to a friend that a grandparent wouldn't give a child sweets before dinner if they knew the parents would be unhappy about it.
I expected her to agree.
She put on a hurt face and said "Ooh, I like to do those things."

Luckily for her, her family treats her as a bit of an eccentric rather than getting annoyed.

I really don't think I am much different to any other GP, surely? It does take compromise on both sides but so simple when you recognise that it is their family. Perhaps it helps that I never phone any of them as they have such busy lives and I leave it to them to contact me, they do. I simply message them if there is anything to say or do and they can choose when they open the message.

My other son & dil live quite close but have no children so it is a different relationship but still close. She trusts me to help if she needs it and I know she would help me if I needed it. We recently went to a show together and had a great time, just the two of us.

I just don't understand how reasonable people can't work towards good relationships, just use common sense. That is why it is difficult to understand the person who is making our lives hell is not reasonable.

This is just my view on our situation and how things deteriorated with us. I'm not saying it's like this for everyone

Nonnie, you sound like a dream!

You described your DIL as a friend and you have a great relationship with her. That is so lovley. No wonder she trusts you, you have proved time and time again that she can trust you.
You haven't demanded anything, you take her advice on board, you value her as a mum and you listen to her.
You sound like your genuinely care about the girl and her feelings.

I've said this before, It's the build up to the grandchildren I found is where it went extremely wrong for us.

It was already rocky between DH and his Mum but it really did ramp up when I was pregnant and when DD was a newborn. It's those first few days/weeks that are very important as a new parent, you need time and help not bad feelings and arguments.

Had she of acted like you, things would be very different now. It's so sad how things can turn out.

Lots of good points, GoodMama!

Love your explanation about weddings! I think there are some cultures where a marriage is seen as "joining two families" (not sure). But I agree that in Western tradition, it doesn't quite work that way, even if people sometimes say it.

FarNorth, what a sad story! And if the young woman tends to clam up, I can see why.

Nonnie, you sound like a wonderful MIL! No wonder, you have a "great relationship" with your DIL.

I didn't mean to suggest that all GPs commit those "offenses" or even that many do. It's just that these are the transgressions the young parents in that MN conversation were complaining about and what they said they wouldn't do. I'm sure family rifts are not always the GPs' fault. No doubt, sometimes the young parents are to blame (as I've often read, a "bad MIL" was probably once a "bad DIL"). In fact, I'm certain that in some cases, there's fault all around.

But GoodM I think most of us are like that surely? I just don't recognise the interfering GPs so often mentioned as none of my friends appear to be like that. Most of us help out where we can but know when to not say anything. Many on here give a lot of time helping with childcare which I would if they lived nearer. They don't but her mum does and she helps out. She also keeps in touch with me and sends videos of the children. We are good friends and she comes to us for holidays without the rest of the family. It feels like both families have become extended family. Why would anyone want to change that?

Nonnie,

"She is very outspoken but polite. If I am not doing something the way she would do it she simply tells me and I do it her way. If asked I give advice but always explain that ideas may be different now. We have a great relationship and I wouldn't have it any other way. "

This is wonderful! Kuddos to you and her for your respectful relationship. Unfortunately, as you would see from some of those MN posts, not all GP behave this way. They could learn a thing or two from you!