Narcissistic adult children

I simply don't recognise this situation "the "offenses" they wouldn't commit - giving unsolicited advice, questioning their AC's and CIL's decisions, coming over unannounced, breaking their AC's/CIL's rules for their kids, etc". Do many GPs do this? I certainly never have.

One of my dils lives a long way away, when she was getting married she sent me a photo of her dress so I was included in the arrangements but I had to promise not to show anyone else. When the first child arrived we were invited over and we stayed with her mum because the baby was very new. I could see she struggled to hand him to me, not because I did anything wrong but because she didn't want anyone to hold him. I gave him back quite quickly after saying all the things you would expect.

As time has moved on she has become far more relaxed and totally trusts me on the 5 or 6 times a year we go to them or they come to us. She is very outspoken but polite. If I am not doing something the way she would do it she simply tells me and I do it her way. If asked I give advice but always explain that ideas may be different now. We have a great relationship and I wouldn't have it any other way. I dislike the idea that it is always the fault of the GP, surely there could be fault on either or both sides? Some of us are very good GPs, not all do what has been suggested on this thread and not all deserve what has happened.

@farnorth, that poor mother experiencing her loss, and her mother being no support!!

@goodmama, I think you’ve made some very valid points

Excellent posts GoodMama.

There's a thread on Mumsnet just now about things narcissists have said :
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3620415-hilarious-things-narcissists-have-said

Many of the awful-sounding people described are parents. No doubt those parents would claim that they have done nothing wrong and that their adult child is the unreasonable one.

Here is just one quote from the thread :
When I lost my baby at 12 weeks my mum said
“I know you tend to clam up and not talk about things but you probably shouldn’t in this case, but don’t talk to me about it because I find it upsetting”

Apologies for the typos, hopefully it’s not too distracting.

The idea of “family loyalty” that we see on here is a bit misguided.

Growing up, the nuclear family should have loyalty to one another.

But when adult children get married all of those priorities shift, as they should.

A wedding ceremony (Christian or tradition western) is very symbolic.

Two individuals come tigger with their nuclear family. However, during the ceremony the two individuals promise before the State and/or God to forsake all others for each other. So stand beside one another through all good times and bad.

They agree to stand beside each other. All others are now “others”.

They agree to form a new family that stands all on its own. Sure, it was ties to extended relatives who were previously in their nuclear family. But they just formed a new and independent family with each other.

Then, they hold hands and as a new united family wall away from their previous nuclear family.

It’s a powerful ceremony.

People identify mention “gaining a son or daughter” or “joining of two families”. These are lovely thoughts, but that’s not what is happening.

We didn’t witness a new member join our family, to fall under our domain and join in our traditions.

We witnessed the creation of a family, who will create their own traditions and live outside our circle.

Yes, we still love and support one another. Wish the best for each other. We celebrate together, we mourn together. We are a large extended family that includes many people and continues to grow.

But, those two people are a separate family unit within a larger extended family group.

Their loyalty is with each other. Just as when our adult children leave the nest our loyalty and focus should turn to our spouse. They are our partner. Our person to enjoy and put before all others. Our adult children are off doing the same.

This is an interesting discussion.

I think what we hear adult children say isn’t that their parents are oblivious to new parenting ways or new social norms.

But that even after the adult children explain or make requests to set a path forward in a relationship with their parents they continue to disregard those boundaries or simple asks.

It’s the repeated refusal to accept their adult children as adults with the authority over their own lives, even if it’s not what their parents want.

There is a common theme among some posts. This idea that parents have been “cut off from their adult children (and it seems sometimes more importantly, grandchildren) due to no fault of their own” that seems at be unhealthy.

There are wonderful examples on this board of people who have changed their ways and realized that their expectations and wants are their own, and that their adult children aren’t required to bend to their will.

They now have wonderful and fulfilling relationships with their adult children, even if they secretly wish there was more contact, they had more influence, more say in their adult children and grandchildren's lives. But they’ve learned to bite their tongues for the bigger picture.

I have the upmost respect for those posters. It’s not easy to do, but it shows grace and humility that is admirable.

I also agree that some sort of low contact strategy is always a better option, however it does take quite a lot of discipline to not get drawn into the same old conflicts, it almost seems as if people take a scorched earth /take no prisoners approach to the problem because they just can't be bothered to do the hard work of restraining themselves or standing back and trying to see the problem from all sides

So they may find themselves crossing boundaries they didn't know existed
I think you hit the nail on the head there!

When I say "they may find themselves crossing boundaries they didn't know existed," I'm thinking of those GPs today who got CO for things they thought were "normal." Ive seen where some people come from places or families where it is common to drop in on each other, so they didn't understand when AC or CIL objected to their coming over unannounced. And I know plenty of people, including me, who didn't like unsolicited advice from their parents or PILs, but who still thought it was normal for parents/PILs to do that and so did the same w/ their AC/CIL when they thought it was called for. I picked up the clue that this wouldn't be tolerated when DD first called me out on doing that, but some parents/GPs persist, thinking that, in the end, it will be ok. These are the reasons I'm thinking that when their AC grow up and have families, today's young parents may do somethings they think are normal but that their AC/CIL object to. IDK how many of them foresee that.

That's another reason I think that if things can't be resolved, the parents should lower contact, rather than go totally NC. At least, that way, the GPs still see their AC and GC, even if not as much as they want. These young parents need to realize they're setting an example that may affect them in the future.

"Fast forward several years and what will happen? Will the GC behave in the same way as their parents? If they have not been allowed contact with their GPs will they see a need for their children to have GPs? Will the tables be turned? I think some of these narcissist are so deluded that they think they are perfect and that it couldn't happen to them."

Once on MN, I saw a poster ask some young parents this question. They all said it wouldn't happen to them b/c they would respect their AC's boundaries, etc. Some enumerated the "offenses" they wouldn't commit - giving unsolicited advice, questioning their AC's and CIL's decisions, coming over unannounced, breaking their AC's/CIL's rules for their kids, etc. And a few said that if they did break these boundaries, they hope their AC/CIL would cut them off.

What many of them don't realize, IMO, is that their kids may have issues that are different than theirs. There may be things that are acceptable to their generation, that won't be acceptable to the next. So they may find themselves crossing boundaries they didn't know existed and being shocked and bewildered at their AC's/CIL's negative reaction. For those who said they would expect their AC/CIL to go NC if they continually crossed their boundaries, well, that's easy to say now, but they don't know how they would actually feel if it happened to them.

It is very clear that some on here really do have issues with narcissists and not just differences of opinions. Perhaps it is easy to understand those who think it could be avoided by different behaviour because, unless you have experienced it, it must be impossible to understand. I certainly had no idea that anyone behaved like this until I experienced it myself.

I think we each have to decide how far we want to push it, go to court, beg or whatever.

Fast forward several years and what will happen? Will the GC behave in the same way as their parents? If they have not been allowed contact with their GPs will they see a need for their children to have GPs? Will the tables be turned? I think some of these narcissist are so deluded that they think they are perfect and that it couldn't happen to them.

Those of us with property and savings may see a change when the AC realise that their behaviour may have cut them out of our wills. Many of us will have chosen to leave everything to other members of the family. It would be understandable if we did.

I think entitlement must be at an all time high. These young adults have never wanted for much, faced wars on their turf or major economic depression. Many seem to view family loyalty as a burden and strictly optional. Family seems more precious to those in economically challenged countries.

So sad, Smileless, to think there are people who see themselves as more important even than their own children. But the do exist (sigh), I suppose. I'm so sorry if your EDIL is one of them. Once again, I'm glad you and Mr. S. made a decision that has helped you get on with your lives.

I'm sure you're right that it would be harder for GPs who were already involved with the GC. IDK what I would do! I can't imagine my DGC not being in my life in some way or other though, of course, it changes as they get older. I agree that GPs have to think very carefully about the choices they make. However, if they are completely CO, they aren't really left much choice, are they? Better to get on with their lives, I imagine, than to sit and pine for the rest of their days. Very sad that these issues even exist!

Nonnie, Meyoo is right, there's nothing you can do because you really are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

The only control you have is over your own life and that is demonstrated by the decisions and choices you make. There may come a time when you decide that you will no longer be a pawn in their game. You then need to consider what price you may well have to pay and if you can afford it.

For all estranged GP's who established a real and loving relationship with their GC, I cannot imagine what it would be like to put your foot down knowing that for that one act, you may never see your GC again.

We never had that level of relationship with our eldest GC and when his brother was born, contact had already been severed. Walking away wasn't easy, we walked away from our son who we adored and a GC we barely knew. I realise that it would have been much harder if we'd developed a relationship with our GC, but I'm as sure as I can be that we'd have still made the same decision, as spending the rest of our lives, never knowing from one week to the next if we were going to see our S and GC was not the way we wanted to spend the rest of our lives.

Should we do nothing and allow our AC to deny their children, our GC their legal right to a family life? Yes, I think we should because what can we do? We never had a relationship with our GC, something that a GP has to prove in court, so court wouldn't have been an option for us anyway.

For those GP's who can prove that established relationship, they may be successful in obtaining the court's permission to see their GC but then what? What happens if the parents don't make your GC available? You have to go back to court because the reality is, if they don't want you to see your GC, it's going to be extremely difficult to make it happen.

Starlady as you say, the actions of someone jumping in and out of someones life when they feel like it, can appear to be narcissistic even though they're wanting to try again, but a narcissist isn't interested in trying again at a relationship, the only interests they have are what that relationship can do for them, and whether or not they are the most important person in that relationship. They have to be more important than their own parents, their partner, their in laws and sadly in some cases even their own children.

Everyone who doesn't give them precisely what they want, when they want it is disposable.

@Nonnie, I feel that your post could be summarised with the question 'what can you do when someone has you over a barrel'
The answer is nothing? they've got you by the short and curlies, rock and a hard place, damned if you do and damned if you don't

How far should one go treading on eggshells? If you have agreed with everything they say, bought the things they ask you to and never interfered, never suggested how to bring up the GC (yes it is possible) what more can you do? If you are accused of doing things you didn't do and can prove you didn't but they don't accept the proof, what can you do? If they have cut off members of their own family and want to cut their spouse of from their family, what can you do? If they put themselves before their children, what can you do? If you have evidence that they have committed perjury, what can you do? Yes, you could give the evidence to the court but then they could get a custodial sentence so that would harm the children. Should you just sit there and let them deny their children their 'legal right to a family life'?

Yes, I, too, am very impressed with your post. GoodMama! I see Nonnie's and Smileless' point, also, about the "true narcissist." But I think, in some cases, these conflicts are just a matter of each person having difficulty seeing the other person's perspective.

Crafty, I'm so glad your relationship w/ AD is improving. I think you have the right attitude about lowering your expectations and accepting the relationship as it is. It is fortunate, also, that AD accepted the email about GD having a right to her GPs and is, apparently, giving it thought. Ive seen some AC/CIL on MN, etc. brush off that idea as just another tactic that GPs use to try to regain or increase access to their GC. TG, your AD took the idea to heart and has resumed contact to some degree. I hope the situation continues to improve. And hey, kudos to GD! And to AD for training her so well!

Also, I'm glad AD took your advice about her reactions to SIL to heart and didn't see it as "interfering." I realize that since she won't go for professional help, you felt you needed to step in. And I'm glad her marriage seems to have improved since then.

It seems from what you tell us that AD has difficulty w/controlling her temper. Would she consider attending anger management? (I realize you're treading carefully and might not want to make any suggestions right now.)

Ladies, I agree that it looks narcissistic when someone just keeps coming in and out of someone else' life, apparently, at will. But I wonder, sometimes, if that isn't partly a matter of wanting to try again and then finding that the same offenses are committed, causing a new rift. As GoodMama suggests, some AC/CIL may simply not have communicated their wishes clearly enough. Then again, perhaps their parents (or siblings or whoever) have chosen not to respect those wishes or have a hard time doing so. Either way, the offenses are repeated (unsolicited advice, refusal to observe parental wishes for the GC, etc.) and the AC/CIL shut down contact again.

Since I'm not estranged, perhaps I don't have a full grasp of the situation. But, IMO, if you (general) reconcile w/ someone, you need to be careful not to avoid a repeat of the scenarios that led to the original CO. NOT saying the fault is all on one side, but we each can only control our own choices. NOT saying, either, that this has anything to do w/ any of the estrangements posters here have experienced. I'm thinking more of situations like Smileless' EDIL's on-again, off-again relationship w/ her own relatives.

GoodMama I found your post extremely insightful, thank you for your wise words ?

That certainly could be the case Bopeep narcissists tend to have a history of behaviour that includes estranging family members, so it's quite likely her children's paternal GP's were treated as you are now.

You are quite right Nonnie in that when dealing with a true narcissist, nothing you do can alter the eventual outcome. If they wish to push you out of their's and your AC's life, you're out.

crafty I think you are right, there must be different levels but the one I know, who is fortunately not in my blood line, is not in anyway amenable to listening to anyone. They are always right, very manipulative, even when proof is shown they will still say they are right. There is so much more I could add but won't. I am so glad for you that your DD is not as bad.

GoodM although I agree with much of what you have said I genuinely believe that a truly narcissistic person can be so without it being anyone else's fault. Yes, there can be interference on one side or another but that is not automatically the case. I am not talking about family differences, we all have those and most of us manage to find a way through. However if one is dealing with a truly narcissistic person there is nothing one could have done differently to have prevented the situation. I do hope that those who are in this situation through no fault of their own can take comfort that they did nothing wrong.

Urmstongran, thank you for the kind words

Craftyone, if you were standing in from of me I'd give you a hug and tell you that I'm so glad you aren't beating yourself up anymore. We can all only be one half of a relationship, you can't make the other person be different. And I'm so happy you are at peace and happy, enjoying your family. You sound like a wonderful woman and I'm sending you an internet hug anyway

good mama, you last post made me a little tearful. We all want perfection, the perfect close and loving family. It`s been a very difficult and long journey to reach the point of acceptance. There is no point in me wishing that things were different. I feel blessed and happy to be at this stage and it is certainly better than me beating my chest, having sleepless nights and wishing that things were different. It is what it is and who knows, maybe is part of the great plan, to teach me something

GoodMama I’m very fortunate that no one in my immediate or extended family has any experience of this situation.

However, from what I have gleaned from posts here and other similar threads, your post is stellar!

It ought to be held up as a gold standard and read by all who can relate to this estrangement.