Child arrangement court order

All human beings are liars. Kids included ("have you brushed your teeth?")

We all say white lies, to soften the blow, to be polite, avoid an escalation, be able to get away from a bad situation, etc.

Examples -
You are given a present and you do not like it, yet you say "it's lovely"

Somebody wants to sell you something and won't leave you alone. You say you are in a rush and are late to see your friends.

You go shopping and see a blouse you like- too expensive. The salesperson puts pressure on you to buy it and you say you will think about it and come back.

That's irrelevant Hithere. It's not about whether or not the child wants to have tea at GM's, it's about the child hearing mum say why they aren't going, and knowing what mum has said ie the reason why, isn't true.

You regard the scenario I gave as "very grandma oriented" and IMO the posters I am in discussion with are very anti grandma oriented.

Well obviously Smile.

Smileless,

Your example of tea at grandma's - it is phrased in a very adult point of view, a young child may not put that much value in tea at grandma's. They prefer playing with their friends, watching tv, going to park, etc.

In your scenario:
1. Grandma issues an invite for tea
2. Mother says no as they already have plans to go out
3. Mother and child end up staying home

Two quick conclusions:
1. Something may have happened that the plans to go outside are cancelled- weather related, store is closed, other party they were going to visit has cancelled, child got sick, priorities at home changed (laundry is more urgent, for example), plans are rescheduled, etc.
Life happens and young families plan on the fly and last minute - time is very scarce
2. The grandma may not accept a no for an answer without a reason - a no should be sufficient
In order to protect grandma's feelings, the mother JADEs.

A 5 year old is very happily redirected to another activity and does not act as a judge who is right or wrong (lies vs honest)

This scenario is honestly very grandma oriented - tea with grandma has the most value for grandma than anybody else involved

Mothers of young kids barely have time for a cup of tea themselves, they are lucky if they can make the tea at home and drink it while it is hot

I mean, I get asked by children 100 times a day if we can do a dance video or go in the field or read a certain book. A million fantastic ideas that I would love to fit in. I don't want to say no, so I say maybe and if we have time and maybe at story time. Some I can fit in, some I can't and some I probably forget. Even with the best will in the world, it's just not possible. Am I therefore a liar?

Likewise, anyone agreeing with a child in that scenario that a GP is bad for that has something fundamentally wrong with them.

It might be helpful if we didn't keep throwing around the word 'toxic'. There are toxic parents and toxic GP's but this recent discussion is about children seeing a parent or GP as a liar or honest, not toxic.

A child will know if a P or GP is lying if they witness one or the other saying something they know not to be true.

I tell children that sometimes people mean to do things but don't always get around to it and that doesn't make them a liar. It probably just makes them a bit tired and overwhelmed or just that they don't want to upset the child by saying no. Anyone agreeing with the child and saying their parent is bad for that has something fundamentally wrong with them.

Possibly GG. A child who has witnessed their mother lying may assume that their GM doesn't lie, is honest, because they've never witnessed her telling a lie.

My point is that it is wrong to assume that if a child has come to that conclusion, that they were 'helped'. IMO it is being implied in the example given by nonnie, that that particular child was helped by their GM in an attempt to alienate the child from his/her mother.

Razz even went as far to say that we don't know if nonnie was telling the truth!

I'm not calling anyone a liar, just making a point. If you have a parent saying one thing and a grandparent saying another, how is the child going to know? Also we all know parents are tired and occasionally say in a minute or maybe later. That doesn't make them liars in general. Children aren't going to know who is telling the truth between a grandparent and a parent over larger issues. Especially if one of them is toxic.

I can’t see a 5 year old coming to that conclusion at all Smileless.

Does that mean that if a child knows that their mum has baths at home, but has never seen their grandma having a bath, that they would assume their mum washes but their grandma doesn’t?

Do you think that is the scenario Nonnie described?

I didn't say in that post that that would be the case GG but I did say in my previous post that if a child has never heard their GM lie it's reasonable that they assume she doesn't tell lies, she is honest, where as the mother has shown that she is not honest.

Sure, but in that scenario, how would they come to the conclusion that grandma doesn’t tell lies?

Let's say that GM has invited the family for tea and the child knows this and over hears his mum on the 'phone saying that they can't go because they've already arranged to go out but they don't go out.

The child may not know why they're not going but will know that the reason his mother gave was a lie.

Could you please apply you last comment to a scenario to help me understand your perspective a bit better Smileless.

Of course they can. If a 5 year old for example hears his/her mother saying something they know to be untrue, a lie, but has never heard their GM do the same thing, it is not unreasonable for that child to conclude that their mother lies and their GM doesn't.

That doesn't of course mean that the GM never lies, simply that the child has not witnessed her doing so.

But Nonnie’s example was not of a child being able to discern if an adult is lying. Children grasp the concept of lies. Lying is a normal part of child development.

What Nonnie described was a 5 year old child identifying her mother as a “liar” and her grandmother as “honest”. 5 year olds do not come to such conclusions on their own.

Of course I'd have been concerned GG but what was being discussed here was whether or not a child of that age was able to discern if an adult was lying without being given 'help' to form that judgement.

I have given an example that demonstrates that a 6 year old can make that judgement from their own observations without being 'helped' by another adult to do so.

Yes a normal reaction GG from a child who when his father repeatedly says he's going to do a thing and fails to do so, sees that his parent is lying.

Saying you'll do something that you have no intention of doing, is telling a lie. During the 7 days of that holiday the dad played in the pool with his children on only one occasion despite telling them more than once a day that he would.

I didn’t say children were stupid. I think children are quite bright.

I said it sounded like that child was coached.

Smileless, are you saying that if you had heard either of your children say, as 5 year olds “mummy tells lies but grandma doesn’t” that you wouldn’t have been concerned?

The difference, Smileless, is that in your example, the child was angry with his father, in that moment, for not coming to play with him when the child wanted him to. That is typical for a child. They are only interested in having their current needs met. Sounds like a normal reaction to me.

5 and 6 year old's may not be able to work things out 100% of the time but that doesn't mean they are never able to do so.

Razz you may not agree with nonnie's example but that doesn't entitle you to say "we don't even know if you're telling the truth".

In case there are any doubts as to the truthfulness of my post, I can assure that it the truth and an exact retelling of the events that day.

We were on holiday 2 years ago with a family and their 3 children, the eldest was 6.

Mr. S. went in the pool with him and his brother several times a day and about 3 days into the holiday, after their dad kept saying when asked by his children to join in, 'yes in few minutes', the eldest got very upset.

Mr. S. told him not to get upset as dad would come in and play, and the 6 year old responded with "no he's wying(lying) he's always wying".

So you see Summerlove if a 6 year old can make that observation without 'help' why not a 5 year old? Children aren't stupid. If a parent is constantly fobbing a child off by saying they'll do something in few minutes or in a moment, and they never or rarely do so, the child sees that their parent is lying without having any help to form that opinion.