Child arrangement court order

A coincidence to say the least when it was mentioned until the GM went to court for access to her GC.

therefore it was a lie

Not necessarily.

There is a threshold whereby someone who previously allowed their kids to go with a driver may get to a point where they think that driver is no longer a safe driver. Or when they realise how bad it is having brushed it off before.

Allowing them to drive the children in the past isnt "proof" that they lied when they said they believed the children are not safe in the car.

I remember that post Hithere but if my memory is correct, the point the EGP was making was up until her son and his wife decided they no longer wanted her to see her GC, they'd been more than happy for her to drive those GC around.

When he said at a later date that she was a bad driver, I don't think the word used was horrible, it was said to support his 'case' that she was unsuitable to have contact with her GC. Therefore it was lie, if that was the truth, why had she never been stopped from driving the GC around before?

Twentytwenty

I agree with you on lie vs truth

In estranged vs estrangers, one party says the other party lies, when for the "liars", it is their truth.

In one recent thread in gn, a grandma lost a gpr case because her son lied about her driving capabilities- her son thought she was a horrible driver.

Summer I simply don't recognise the people you are talking about. Everyone I know puts the GC first and simply wouldn't behave like that. If they were selfish, as you suggest, surely they would not wish to alienate the GC?

No, not at all sheltered, lived in different parts of the country, had different jobs. I will say I am probably middle class and most of my close friends are well educated so don't intimately know many people who don't think outside their own little world. Obviously I can only talk about the people I know and they all seem to go out of their way to help their families and would never get into this situation unless the AC were very unreasonable. I get on very well with my AC and their spouses so am sure they would never do this to their children.

Nonnie, the people I know are lovely “normal” people who were grieving. Grief changes everyone. People can do the most insane things when grieving. That’s not the exception that is normal. It’s why someone grieving is advised not to make big decisions.

The problems becomes when they can’t or don’t see beyond themselves. People are inherently selfish. So they do what they want. They want to make sure a child learns what they want them to about their heritage so they do.

Normal people. Not extremes. If you’ve never met people who just do what they want, then you’re sheltered

LostChild Sun 08-Sep-19 18:47:39 not quite sure what point you are making in your last paragraph so here's my input: we all know that abusive parents sometimes get away with it for years without being found out. Narcissists are quite capable of convincing others that whatever is going on is someone else's fault. I know of someone who used to abuse their partner and call the police to say they had been abused. It went on for some time and social services became involved but after a while the social worker saw through all the lies.

What is abuse? A young child will assume their life is normal and that being told not to tell anyone is normal too. Most children love their parents unconditionally until they find out that what has been happening at home is not normal, by then they are much older.

TwentyTwenty Sun 08-Sep-19 19:49:37 I don't think that is at all normal, that is not a memory box.

TwentyTwenty Sun 08-Sep-19 21:25:13 very true which is why it is a good idea to keep abusive emails. Ps and GPs can be guilty of this

Summerlove Sun 08-Sep-19 21:48:00 I think its best to assume P and GP are doing their best until you can prove otherwise. There are good Ps and GPs also bad both.

GG65 Sun 08-Sep-19 21:49:17 point well made

Summerlove Sun 08-Sep-19 18:05:37 Why would they? What sort of people do you know? I can't understand why anyone would do the things you suggest.

MissAdventure Sun 08-Sep-19 18:11:59 Well said. It does seem as if the extremes are being suggested as the norm.

Summerlove Sun 08-Sep-19 18:14:14 Then you have had a very poor experience, most of us would be child led in such a situation. I am only talking about normal people not the exceptions.

notanan2 Sun 08-Sep-19 18:31:57 that rather depends on whether both sides are being reasonable doesn't it? A perfectly normal GP could go to court because of a parent's intransigence and also the other way round. Any adequate solicitor would stop the process before it got to court if it thought its client was unreasonable.

There are certainly some messed up families, that's for sure.

The more I read, the more I appreciate how lucky I've been, in some ways.

My mum and my Nan didn't speak for 3 years, incidentally, but it never affected me at all.

I still skipped off to spend time with my Nan most days, and neither of them made it uncomfortable, thankfully.

MissAdventure, your post hit very close to home for me.

That is exactly what went on in my husband’s sister’s family - drug abuse, excessive alcohol consumption, violence and criminal activity. Only, my MIL didn’t want it uncovered either. MIL and SIL brainwashed those children into believing that things weren’t that bad and alienated them from their father - who was their way out of the dysfunction.

But she had no problem phoning the police on my husband and making false allegations against him when he confronted her on it (although, there were many other issues).

And still, to this day, she claims she has no idea why my husband has no relationship with her.

I feel so sorry for that poor woman and her grandchildren that you mentioned in your post. Any normal grandparent would have done as she did. It’s awful that the police or social services did not investigate. Those children could have been placed into her care, instead of going into the care system. Such a sad, sad story. Those children were badly let down by their parents and by the systems that are there to protect them. Awful.

MissAdventure, not ideal at all I’m afraid. Some of those dysfunctional people can be the nicest in the world, but life events and poor boundaries can really screw up relationships

I agree it’s best to assume parents are doing their best.

HiThere said: One person's lies are somebody else's truth.

Not when you have 4 corroborating witnesses.

And actually, what you are referring to is more in line with an 'opinion'.

A 'lie' or a 'truth' can be verified by factual examination of statements, actions or events. An opinion cannot.

I agree Hithere that memories are personal and no doubt the cards we have in our EGC's memory box may mean more to us than they'll ever mean to them. But that doesn't mean they wont mean something to them, and for us that's what really matters.

Memory boxes are like baby boxes.

Parents keep the most memorable baby clothes, art work, toys, etc in a box so their adult children can have them when they are old, maybe even the grandchildren able to wear the clothes and play with the toys.

The catch is that the box usually means more to the person making the box than the one receiving it. Memories are very personal.

One person's lies are somebody else's truth.

Nonnie said: I don't see how lies could get into a 'memory' box.

It's very simple actually... My parents have stated that they will include a letter explaining their version of the truth in the box.. I don't see whats so hard to understand. They will take a written letter full of lies, and place it in the box.. and call it the truth.

Do you understand the concept of putting a letter in a box?

Because that's all that it is, not more complex than that.

Its all very complicated and sad, isn't it?
Not ideal for anyone, I suppose, but there are some very dysfunctional people around.

I wonder how on earth courts can decide what's best, and I can agree that their best way, unless there are reasons otherwise, is to assume that parents are doing their best for their children.

Those are two very sad stories MissAdventure.

I hope the mum is able one day to move forward.

I saw an interesting comment earlier in this thread that says basically:

For every GP who goes to court who has been cut off unfairly, there is one that goes to court who has been cut off for good reason.

Make the process too easy for good grandparents and you make it easier for bad ones.

I think that is why courts are leaning more to grandparents who have been cut off by divorce and not estrangement. If it was easy to tell or prove abusive parents, they wouldn't have managed to raise kids without them being taken away. They also wouldn't have been able to convince their own children they weren't being abused for so long. Courts recognise abusive people can appear wonderful.

By the same token, I know of a Nan cut out of her grandchildrens lives because there was drug abuse, drink, domestic violence and sexual abuse that the parents didn't want uncovered.

I realise that's certainly not the case for all parents who go no contact, hence I don't keep referring to it here.

The children are badly damaged, both in care now (many years too late) and their Nan was told by police to stay away when she was trying to alert others.

The discussion seems to be focusing on those who behave in extreme ways to inhibit anyone else from doing what comes naturally, which is to love and want the best for the children, in a reasonable, not vengeful or spiteful or obsessive way

Well yes but those arent the scenarios that might end up with GPs Vs Ps in court so the discussion will veer somewhat towards the more unhealthy end of normal IYKWIM

Of course.
I know of a mum who has set up almost a shrine for her daughter, and still keeps it going, almost 25 years later.

It seems quite unhealthy to me, though I suppose I can understand how it could happen.

I never said it was universal.

But it does happen.

Relationships can be ruined by it.

It’s very very sad.

I don't really know that many people who are grieving the loss of an adult child, which is strange, considering I belong to a group for bereaved parents.

The scenario you're describing is not the case at all for us.

In my experience with grieving children, the family members thought they were normal and helping.

They just weren’t listening to what the child wanted. Their grief was all consuming, so they “knew best”. It helped them, so obviously it helped the child. Except it didn’t.