Child arrangement court order

When you consider the damage already done to children notanan it seems to me that the responsibility for that damage is always placed on the GP's.

Not at all
Thats your bias.
My posts dont say that.
It is hard to have a discussion with posters who superimpose things not said to fit their own narrative.

Usually people no longer want to see their own parents because of behaviour they now find unsafe or unacceptable. Often having children changes perceptions on what impact actions have on children. That’s why every generation raises their children differently from the one before.

In most cases where the parents are saying do you as I want, it is for the child’s best interest. Even if not, THEY are the parents, and they aren’t the ones threatening to take the grandparents to court over visitation.

Do you honestly not see a difference? Really and truly?

It may sound like blackmail to you Summerlove and in some cases may be the case, much like 'do what I want, give me what I want or you wont be allowed to see your GC'.

Yes I did Razzmatazz all but one regarding parents financing a court hearing without their children going without. The reality is you didn't agree with my explanations, not that I didn't give you any.

I'm not referring to GP's exhibiting behaviour that their GC's parents find unacceptable Bibbity I'm talking about parents who take their GC away from their GP's because they don't want to see their own parents anymore.

Just because someone has had frequent contact with a child doesn’t mean that it is in the child’s best interest to continue that relationship. If the parents decide that the actions or behaviour of someone means they do not want that person around their child then that is that.

They can explain in child friendly ways why the relationship has had to be severed.

another would be to avoid court all together by allowing at least some measure of contact between the children and their GP's

....you know that sounds like blackmail, right? Give me what I want and I won’t take you to court? Obey me or face the consequences and financial instability?

That doesn’t sound like someone who cares more for the well being of a child more than winning against Childs parents

You didn't answer them at all smile. You gave answers that aren't logically possible through the court system. You gave best case scenarios that don't apply. I am certainly not biased, I would love good GPs to see children, I know they are a benefit. My father is a benefit to my children. Going through court is the wrong way to go about all this and as I have said, I see the damage to children. Mediation, family therapy... So many good and positive options. Anyway, respectfully I am going to leave this thread, the bias is not mine and arguing against court ordered visitation being a bad idea despite so many comments explaining overland over the bad impact that has on innocent children just makes me biased against the people who are all for it. Leave children out of adult problems, they are probably happy and settled as they are.

Which is why it makes sense where ever possible to avoid court.

Here's the thing.

Even if you represent yourself in court, there are still costs.

Time must be taken off work, potentially.

Child care must be found.

That all costs money. Money that some families don't have.

Don't be ridiculous Razzmatazz, of course I wouldn't want you, your children or anyone else to be forced to have a relationship with someone who is abusive.

You asked me for a series of explanations which I gave you. Perhaps you didn't think I'd be able too which is why you said if I did, you'd campaign with me. You asked me to explain, not to convince you which I obviously haven't, and knew I wouldn't be able to do.

It's highly unlikely that having lost a son and my only GC due to estrangement, that I'm living in a "fantasy world where it is all sunshine and rainbows".

You on the other hand due to your abusive mother appear to be living in a world overshadowed by the pain and trauma that you've suffered. For that I am truly sorry that said, I would rather live in my 'fantasy' world as you put it, where there is sunshine and hope than yours where it appears your entire view of EP's and GP's is coloured by your own, all be it understandable, bitterness and anger.

No, that doesn't answer anything Smile, especially the most important part about how the courts are supposed to decide who is and isn't abusive and a danger to children. Of course parents try to hide stress from children, but children arent daft and will pick up on it. You haven't answered what happens if the children don't want to go and they have to because it is court ordered. I think you are living in a fantasy world where it is all sunshine and rainbows. Trust me, I have seen enough parents divorce and end up with court appointed visitation. I have dealt with the aftermath of it for the children. I have watched their education suffer. I have watched their social and emotional development suffer. Children whose parents divorce amicably do very well and bounce back within a few months. When 2 parents can't get on well enough to sort out visitation between themselves, it is generally because one was abusive. If you believed your grandchild was resident with an abusive parent, you would do the right thing and report them. I can't tell you specific stories because I would lose my job, but some of the things children tell me are horrifying. I spend a lot of time with them, they trust me.

In order for good grandparents to be allowed contact, the bad ones would get a chance. People like my mother who emotionally and physically abused me. Who had a terrible effect on my older son before I cut her off. The boy who would come home upset because his grandparents aren't like his friends grandparents. The woman who left me no evidence to prove her abuse because she was too sly and clever and has enough charisma to charm you out of the shirt on your back. The woman who would have taken me to court were they younger, she told me so in an email. Because my children are tools to make her look good and the real victim. Is that what you want?

So Razzmatazz are you going to campaign with me?

The previous contact that GP's had with their GC would be a good starting point Razzmatazz. When GP's have had their GC without the parents being present in the past, it's unlikely that that would have happened if the parents seriously believed their children would be at risk.

It follows therefore, that up until some point those GP's were considered to be good GP's. If there were a particular incident or series of incidents that came to light showing that the GP's were not fit to see their GC, that would initially be raised by the parents when the GP's initially seek permission to go to court, and most likely if it's true and can be substantiated, prevent the case going ahead.

Children can miss out of other things going on in their lives for all sorts of reasons. When there is no estrangement, children at times may feel resentful that they have to go with mum and dad to visit GM and GD. This scenario is also the case where parents 'force' their children to visit GP's with them, because that's what the parents want.

If the EP's who know the GP's not to be a risk to their children are denying contact because they, the estranging parents don't want it, it would be hoped that they would at least have the maturity to understand the importance of an already established and loving relationship between their children and their GP's.

It would be the responsibility of the parents and GP's to keep any stress they may feel away from the children, as they do in other areas of their lives. There are many things that make parents stressful and the majority of them find ways to avoid that stress adversely affecting their children.

I cannot of course explain to you how some parents with limited means can afford representation without their children going without. We have had on GN very recently, a GM who went to court alone as she couldn't afford representation.

One possibility would be for parents to do as she did, another would be to avoid court all together by allowing at least some measure of contact between the children and their GP's.

There are GP's who have successfully managed to see their GC due to a court order, few and far between admittedly but it does happen. If it was not believed by safeguarding organisations and the courts that GP's going to court to see their GC was never the right thing to do, then GP's would never have been given permission by the courts to do so.

When you consider the damage already done to children notanan it seems to me that the responsibility for that damage is always placed on the GP's.

So when those of you do so, talk of the 'damage' to the GC of GP's who do decide to go to court, consider the damage that has already been done to those children

We have!
Court doesnt undo that damage. It just adds new damage on top!

I mean explain to me how this process could work so that all children are protected from abusive people. Explain to me how regular contact would work without the children missing out on other things going on in their lives. Explain to me how it would work if the children don't want to go and are forced to. Explain to me how this could happen without causing stress to the parents which impacts the children. Explain to me how parents raising small children afford legal representation without their children going without. Explain to me why courts and the safeguarding organisation they work with aren't awarding grandparents rights already if it is the right choice. Explain all that to me and I will campaign with you.

Smile, how are the courts supposed to decide who were good grandparents and who weren't? Who would be good grandparents and who wouldn't? Who out of the parents or AC are in the right or wrong?

Thank you namsnanny and nonnie.

We are fast approaching 7 years of estrangement from our son and only GC. We are fortunate in that we never established a relationship with the eldest, as we weren't allowed too, last saw him when he was 8 months old and have never seen the youngest.

They are also fortunate that they didn't have a relationship with us so us not being a part of their lives is not something they will miss, because we never were.

There are however GC who have spent a lot of time with GP's and then don't get to see them again; what about those children?

For those of you who see only the selfishness of GP's who do decide to go to court, and their desire to 'win' at all costs, what about those children's parents?

This isn't about who is right or wrong when it comes to the cause of the estrangement, it's about what's right for the children.

It makes no sense when GP's who helped with child care, had their GC for sleep overs and days out are suddenly considered unsuitable to have contact. This is the reality for many estranged GP's, not ours thank God, but it is for many.

So when those of you do so, talk of the 'damage' to the GC of GP's who do decide to go to court, consider the damage that has already been done to those children whose GP's, who they know and love, simply disappear from their lives.

The AC of non abusive parents, who are their children's GP's are the ones who are responsible. It was said some time ago on this thread by Starlady I think, that this is not a level playing field and it isn't.

Yes, parents have the power to deny their children their GP's and some do, not because it's right, not because it's fair and not because it's justified, but because they can.

I did wonder

Glad to be of service GG65

I’d love a sarcasm font!

Haha, that’s given me a laugh!

razz, I thought I had.

It obviously failed along with the holding ??‍♀️

Should have used the sarcasm font lol

Notanan, you completely missed my sarcasm

Razzmatazz, I too try to avoid agreeing with other posters as I don’t want to fall into the “us and them” mentality that is so prevalent on the estrangement threads.

I, as a grandparent, cannot agree with using the courts as a way to exert control over your adult children and their own family, no matter how other posters try to dress it up.

I have noticed that you need to be careful about what you say and how you say it, as there are posters who will come at you in an aggressive and over the top manner. Which is a shame, really, as that just shuts down the discussion. Which I am now thinking might be the point!

Notanan2, you are correct, it is of interest for both parties to have a discussion about the realities of court ordered contact in practice. But the thread has descended into the usual back and forth about who is responsible for the estrangement, despite your many attempts to bring it back to this point. None of your questions or points were ever answered or acknowledged.

I can only assume therefore that the other contributors are not too concerned about the realities of court ordered contact in practice and the effects on the child. And that further leads me to believe that maybe it is only truly about their own needs and wants.