Child arrangement court order

"the GP's usually just see it as something done to hurt them" and tragically sometimes they're right to see it in that way.

Before our estrangement, when ES was telling us of their understandable tiredness and need of time to themselves in his email, he also wrote 'we will never stop you from seeing .... because we know how much you love him". Just a few months later they did precisely that.

Also, Nonnie, your story about the fake hysteria is an example, IMO, of the "fake emotions" that were mentioned in another thread.

Notanan, I get your comparison of estrangement and divorce. But I think some GPs call estrangement "abuse" only when it separates them from the GC, as well. The parents may feel they're shielding the GC from something - and they may well be in some cases - but, as I'm sure you've seen, the GPs usually just see it as something done to hurt them.

Nonnie, I wouldn't like the living parent to keep the child from remembering the dead parent either. I was referring to the type of GP (or other relative) who emphasizes and idealizes the memory of the deceased parent so much that this interferes w/ a stepparent who is trying to form a relationship w/ the child, etc. Hopefully, those GPs/relatives are few and far between. But I have seen/heard of it in one or two cases.

Lol normal is just not normal

Yes I know what you mean! LostChild
My son says he doesn't know any 'normal' people!!

Generally, bonkers people who know they are bonkers are my favourite kind of people lol

Lost child...your post made me laugh ? because in our house we always used the phrase
^ Thank God for I and thee! (But then agin I’m not so sure about thee)!!^
Roughly translated means: you and I are normal (but rethinking it, I’m not so sure you are)!
Tongue in cheek reference to the fact we all have a bit of a nutty side given the right circumstances!!!

Absolutely

There are a lot of utterly bonkers people around who just don't seem to know it

If only the lady in your example could see that she'd humiliated herself nonnie and the people she fooled didn't see her behaviour for what it was.

I would like to give an example of the way some people manipulate a situation. This is not to do with estrangement as that has already been done over and over again, this is about the way people can behave which I think is comarable.

We were on a commuter train and had to stand, which we thought we could manage. DH has a spine problem which makes standing difficult but we thought he could manage until there was a delay and the train stood still for quite a long time. We were right next to the seat for the elderly,, disabled etc which was occupied by people in their thirties. I asked DH if he could manage and he replied that he would try but looked very pained. The people in the seat in front offered their seats which we accepted. One of the people behind us had a hissy fit and said we were humiliating her, she had never been treated like that she had been using this train for 5 years and didn't know that seat was for people who needed it etc so loudly that all the carriage heard her. She said she was having a panic attack! She got quite a lot of sympathy for her awful upset, tears, hysterics, the whole works, real drama queen. We got off the train at the same station and as soon as she was off the platform the hysteria stopped! It was all an act and I think that is what some people do when they know they are in the wrong. 'The best form of defence is attack'

Irish Rose you said "There are always those in life who will go to any lengths to get their own way. That said, and again there are no statistics, but I would bet my house that most grandparents taking the court route, are doing so purely from love for their beloved grandchildren." I agree and that could be either the P or the GP which is why when all else fails the courts decide. Imo they are experienced and will do what is best for the child. Only in extreme circumstances, when a parent is trying to thwart the rights of the child, would a court give an order that GPs should see the child on specified dates. I imagine the situation quoted on here must have been such cases.

Namsnanny Thu 05-Sep-19 02:42:44 I wish I could have put that half so well. Thank you. May I just add that the point of the courts is to work out what is best for the child. No child needs to suffer as a result, if the GPs are bad for the child they won't have access. Both Ps and GPs should go to mediation long before it even gets to court so to suggest that is.

notanan2 Thu 05-Sep-19 07:04:49 I think you are splitting hairs, estrangement can be abuse and it can be about protecting someone. It is not as simple as you seem to think

Star you said "The same is true when one parent has, sadly, died, and the remaining parent tries to push his relatives away. IMO, it can be cruel to intensify the loss by separating the GPs, say, from the GC and vice versa. Then again, some GPs try so hard to keep the memory of the deceased parent alive in the child's mind that they interfere w/ the living parent's efforts to move on and begin a new life. IMO, there is no one size fits all answer to these situations." I agree but I wouldn't like to think a parent would want to stop the child remembering a dead parent, that really would be abuse.

notanan2 Wed 04-Sep-19 19:24:59 interesting comments and the first time I've seen a parent admit that. Yes, the children have the rights and Smile's post referred to "The Plight of Children Estranged from Their Grandparents."

Summerlove Wed 04-Sep-19 19:28:38 I disagree, parents do not have the right to 'parent as they wish' they have the 'responsibility' to do what is best for the children

I didn't "super impose" anything, there was no need for me to do so.

Of course we are talking about adult relationships. I'm aware that there have been cases in America where children have divorced their parents, I don't know if this has happened here in the UK, but safe to say that it is adult children who are estranging themselves from an adult relationship.

In some cases the abuse of a child in childhood ceases when they become adults, in others the abuse continues into adulthood. Regardless of their age, a child is always their parents child. If a parent is abusing their adult child they are committing child abuse even if that child is an adult.

notanan "It is common for abusive controlling people to have a huge physical and mental/emotional response when the person they abuse finally walks away" Is it? Despite having been asked on several occasions you have been unable to qualify that statement.

"A common phrase is "you did this to me" about what ever mental/physical/lifestyle breakdown happens to the abuser when the public/street veil falls and they are abandoned". An interesting point. During an extremely unpleasant exchange with our ES's wife she lost her temper with me and said "you've done this to me, you've made me like this".

That statement is equally applicable to an abusive parent and an AC, or in my case a d.i.l. claiming abuse where none has taken place.

Sadly as you have posted IrishRose "This thread has been taken over by self aggrandising and complete hyperbole. Not one statistic has been produced to back up the many - some completely outrageous - claims made".

This thread has been completely taken over by self aggrandising and complete hyperbole. Not one proven statistic has been produced to back up the many - some completely outrageous - claims made.

In any given scenario, we can all offer opinions and repeat "stories" we have heard regarding the subject being discussed. However without proof, that's all they are....opinions and oft repeated stories.

I personally would never resort to litigation. However, I'm mindful of the fact that most grandparents are only in this situation because of the original court involvement by the parents of these children when they decide to end family life as the child knows it. Often this is vicious, and costly and will already have affected the child. Did it stop them?

There are always those in life who will go to any lengths to get their own way. That said, and again there are no statistics, but I would bet my house that most grandparents taking the court route, are doing so purely from love for their beloved grandchildren.

notanan Well I agree that a person ending a relationship is not abuse per se. Just not sure of the relevance of the point about about emotional/physical/mental response in relation to making that point! The two things don't correlate

So to say "estrangement is a form of abuse" is as wrong as saying "divorce is a form of abuse" and its not, it is terminating the relationship!
There may be abuse in the relationship that is being terminated.
There may not, some people just shouldnt be together! (Includes family)
But the divorce/estrangement itself is not an act of abuse

So I still don't really get the point that you were trying to make¬!

That ending a relationship is not abuse! No matter what the other party's response to it may be. Switch "estrangement" for "divorce" and it is easier to appreciate why people must always be able to walk away!

It does not always follow that the party who most publically complains about what the "divorve" "did" to them who is the victim of the relationship, nor is the one who finally calls it a day the default villan!

Don't be afraid of this, as from what I've read the P's and the GC will always be the guiding influence that decides the outcome.
That is not how it works!
We already have court orders! We know how they work, and they are rigid, life restricting and distressing

Namsnanny please share how you think courts would enforce a law that guarentees GPs contact?

No court will order "just contact!, y'know, whatever, whenever suits..."

Here's a hint: court ordered contact and contact centres already exist so we're not talking hypotheticals here! We are just talking about whether or not to widen the number of court ordered a child can be subject to at a time!

A post about historic child abuse would have read very differently!

Notanan, looking this conversation over, I see that your post about huge reactions comes right between your two posts about divorce. However, the "huge reaction" post does not mention divorce. So I can easily see where Smileless related it, instead, to her post about Mr. S' anxiety attack.

The language was also clearly about adult relationships: not adults abusing children! Which is what smileless superimposed!

*Nothing of the sort has been tabled.
Just contact between GP and GC. Simply contact.*
Not weekends, or overnights, just contact

Not "just contact", court ordered contact. And that is what court ordered contact mean.

Why you find it difficult to accept that some GP's have been subjected to unfair treatment is beyond me?
Repeatedly have! It still doesnt make court orders less awful on children.

*Coupled with all the overblown, grandiose exaggerated examples of how GP will destroy their own GC and AC lives are total fantasy. ie:
^court orders x 4 dragging gc to 4 different houses.*
GP who want their rights to forced contacts enshrined in law must surely realise that it wouldnt just apply to them! They may not be the childs only living GP!

Silly comments referencing Smileless post giving info on the Broken Bonds GP action day at Westminster, made you look really unkind and uneducated.
Quote looks like they've been googling US legal jargon by mistake... Ooops!
She told you it was at Westminster, that's the UK.
Im sorry but thats your comprehension lacking not mine. I know where it is, but what they are asking for doesnt work within UK law.

notanan …...Do you think you can give context and reliable information to explain your post on see any domestic volence charity, safeguarding organisation or case histories. Its not a radical statement.