Child arrangement court order

notanan …...Do you think you can give context and reliable information to explain your post on

03.09 - 22.52....It is common for abusive controlling people to have a huge response when the person they abuse walks away (para phrased)

It has been asked several times by Madgran and others, as it's important for all of us to understand what you seem to know.
Not clarifying or answering the question just puts your position in doubt.

Do you see that no where in life can someone just say something and expect it to go unqualified?

No matter how much you personally and emotionally want a situation to be the way you describe it, it's only a story in your head without facts and stats.

Hearsay and gossip doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

Of course you're free to talk about anything you like.
Including what you've heard from friends and neighbours, but to convert that into pseudoscience, is disingenuous!

Silly comments referencing Smileless post giving info on the Broken Bonds GP action day at Westminster, made you look really unkind and uneducated.
Quote looks like they've been googling US legal jargon by mistake... Ooops!
She told you it was at Westminster, that's the UK.

Coupled with all the overblown, grandiose exaggerated examples of how GP will destroy their own GC and AC lives are total fantasy. ie:
^court orders x 4 dragging gc to 4 different houses.
Forcing them to spend the night etc etc., and so it goes.

Nothing of the sort has been tabled.
Just contact between GP and GC. Simply contact.
Not weekends, or overnights, just contact.

Can you not envisage a less nightmare-ish and more normal situation?

20mins after school. A phone call. A birthday or Christmas card and prezzy. These are examples of the more likely types of contact.

Why you find it difficult to accept that some GP's have been subjected to unfair treatment is beyond me?

At least the legal system is waking up to the necessity to first look at, then formulate legislation to allow access where it is at all possible.

Don't be afraid of this, as from what I've read the P's and the GC will always be the guiding influence that decides the outcome.
It is likely to weed out those who do not take the childs needs into account, whether they be parents or gparents.
Surely that's a good thing.

Notanan, looking this conversation over, I see that your post about huge reactions comes right between your two posts about divorce. However, the "huge reaction" post does not mention divorce. So I can easily see where Smileless related it, instead, to her post about Mr. S' anxiety attack.

About GPs who are CO as the result of divorce - I agree that they should not be denied visitation w/ their GC just b/c the parents are no longer together. Nor should the children be denied contact w/ their GPs for that reason. But the GPs who complain of lack of contact usually are from the non-custodial parent's side. So that gets back to the question of who is responsible for ensuring the GP/GC contact, if anyone, their own AC or the custodial parent?

Also, from what Ive seen, there are some variations to this situation. In some cases, if one of the parents begins a new relationship or gets married, the GPs on the other parent's side of the family try to drive a wedge between the child and the new spouse/SO. Or they don't like the new spouse's/SO's childcare practices and make an issue out of it. Or for some other reasons, there are tensions between the new spouse/SO and the GPs. In those cases, some time apart might be make some sense.

The same is true when one parent has, sadly, died, and the remaining parent tries to push his relatives away. IMO, it can be cruel to intensify the loss by separating the GPs, say, from the GC and vice versa. Then again, some GPs try so hard to keep the memory of the deceased parent alive in the child's mind that they interfere w/ the living parent's efforts to move on and begin a new life. IMO, there is no one size fits all answer to these situations.

Notanan Statistics: take your pick: family anihilation/spoucs murder risks go up when an abused partner tries to leave. The defence almost always cites the effects the split was having on the abuser's mental health/finances/physical health

Ok ...but that in no way links to any estranged person who has an emotional/mental/physical response to estrangement, being abusive/controlling! The point is ...estrangement may happen because a party is controlling/abusive and that person may have a response when the other person walks away. But the fact that either party has an emotional/physical/mental response does not necessarily correlate with either of them having been "controlling/abusive!" Mental/physical/emotional response to a traumatic event is human and pretty normal!!

So I still don't really get the point that you were trying to make¬!

I haven't commented on whether estrangement is abuse or not. I personally dont think it is but I accept others may not agree.

Sorry ...should have said that my comment above, and copied below, was in reply to Notanan

My point was that people have emotional/physical responses to lots of different traumatic experiences, divorce included as you say....not necessarily because they have been controlling or abusive but because the experience is traumatic for them. Where can I find the statistics on controlling/abusive people having a huge physical, mental, emotional response when someone walks away, as opposed to people generally having a physical , mental emotional response to a traumatic event ?

What adult would not be stressed by being legally forced to sleep away from home four times a month in 4 different houses? Or to spend every weekend in contact centres? Thus having no day off at home for YEARS!
But some seek to make it law to force children to do so

No such thing as too sensitive, sensitive is a beautiful thing so we need to love them for their sensitive selves and take a little extra care to communicate well

Children have the fundamental human right to peaceful enjoyment of their home life.

Court orders times 4 dragging them round to houses cause "grandparents rights" would directly contradict their human rights to peaceful enjoyment of their home

Statistics: take your pick: family anihilation/spouce murder risks go up when an abused partner tries to leave. The defence almost always cites the effects the split was having on the abuser's mental health/finances/physical health

That is always a possibility Coolgran.

If GP's have become estranged from their GC due to a divorce, they are still estranged GP's.

I said that an adult has the right to choose who they want in their life. They have a right to follow their own agenda.

You came back with it’s the children’s rights.

I think I understand what you were trying to tell me, but I don’t think you were actually taking on board what I am saying.

It is not in most children’s best interest to go through a court case so that the grandparents their parents have chosen not to have a relationship with then have access to the children.

As lostchild stated, The case you are discussing about in the EU is about divorced parents. Not estranged grandparents

lostchild that's funny.

notanan2 not being difficult but can you link to some of the statistics to which you refer?

everyone not talking about courts or anything and this is only a thought, but is it possible that just sometimes an estranger could be a super sensitive person who takes easily offence and could over react.

It's the rights of the children Summerlove and there is clearly some doubt as to whether some parents have the right to deny their children their GP's, hence the EU Court of Justice ruling.

Well then lost, I’ve imagined you too

I have no idea where you could find those statistics Madgran but as there are 'lots' they must be available somewhere.

I had to go look in the mirror in case I had actually turned invisible. Now I am worried have imagined myself

As is their right as an adult.
as it stands now, parents make the legal choices for their children. Unless you are suggesting we overhaul the entire system, who do you think actually gets to make choices for their own children?

I certainly wouldn’t have appreciated my parents, my in-laws or extended other family telling me how I should be raising my children and having legal rights to do so.

Parents have the right to parent as they wish.

Extended family is allowed In on the parents goodwill.

I think families should have relationships. But even more, I believe that parents, as legal guardians, should be respected as the authority on their own children. Again, baring cases where authorities are involved.

Grandparents and extended family are lovely. They are not necessary.

I haven't commented on whether estrangement is abuse or not. I personally dont think it is but I accept others may not agree.

My point was that people have emotional/physical responses to lots of different traumatic experiences, divorce included as you say....not necessarily because they have been controlling or abusive but because the experience is traumatic for them. Where can I find the statistics on controlling/abusive people having a huge physical, mental, emotional response when someone walks away, as opposed to people generally having a physical , mental emotional response to a traumatic event ?

Well no need to worry, it will fail, because in the UK even parents do not have "rights" to children. They have "parental responsibility" not "parental rights" Nobody in UK law has a "right" to any child. It is the child who has rights.

So whoever that group are getting their legal advice from looks like theyve beem googling US legal jargon by mistake! Oops!

So dont panic your children and GC will not be pulled from pillar to post so that 4 different adults who should know and care better get their "rights" to the child!

The problem with that is that the person who feels the relationship is unhealthy may simply be following their own agenda.

But they haven't Smileless, that's parents who divorce, not cases of estrangment

Smileless, The problem comes when not everyone agrees on what a healthy relationship is. I might feel I have an healthy relationship with my mother. She might feel our relationship is extremely unhealthy. Who’s rights win? In my mind, the person who feels the relationship is unhealthy gets to make the choice to back away from the relationship

If that were always the case Summerlove there would be no need to enshrine the rights of some GP's and their GC in law.

Correct me if I am wrong Smileless, but that EU law pertains to access after parents divorce right? Not access after estrangement. Without accidentally starting a political discussion, they don't have long to write that into the Children's Act if we are to brexit

I think most parents will tell you there is great value in relationships with grandparents and extended family in healthy environments.

Environments where there is estrangement and people suing for access is categorically not healthy.

No matter who is “right” or “wrong” it’s unhealthy for all