*SUPPORT* for all who are living with estrangement

Hi

I've not posted for a while but am now seeking advice from you lovely, wise and supportive ladies. My situation is unchanged in that my estranging DiL remains almost totally non-communicative/responsive and invisible on videos, the reason for the sudden rupture never having been explained, but apparently tolerates my GC being seen, heard and interacted with via video links that are initiated by DS when it suits him/her/them.

DiL, DS and GC live overseas. The visit made by DH and myself during the summer was strained and unpleasant for us because of DiL's seemimgly hostile or indifferent attitude, silence or near-silence at all times and cold, rude, overly-controlling behaviour. (DS was friendly and appreciative and appeared to be aware of DiL behaving badly but did not say anything privately to either of us. We did not say anything to him then and have said nothing since as we are worried that this may result in less or no contact with our young GC.)

DiL is expecting another baby next year. I imagine that I will bond when I see/hold him or her but find that unfortunately I have no positive feelings towards the baby in anticipation of his or her arrival and none towards DiL on this occasion apart from relief that the pregnancy is going well. At least, I assume that all is well from the minimal answers that DS and DiL give to my enquiries. It saddens and pains me to feel this numbness but I suppose that it's a natural and understandable, self-protective reaction to being estranged/rejected.

It is very unlikely that DH and I will visit them when their new baby is born (for several reasons) but DS is talking vaguely of them coming to visit us and DiL's family a few months after the birth. (I would prefer that as a matter of courtesy and respect he/she/they would ask if the proposed dates of the visit are suitable to us - just as I asked politely before DH and I visited them - but DiL shows no sign of such consideration and, sadly, DS also seems to have forgotten or set aside the idea of good manners which I raised him to value.)

On the last occasion when they stayed with us, it was often deeply unpleasant and distressing because of DiL's horrible attitude/behaviour and general uptightness. (If only there was an attempt at civil explanation.) This included a lot of non-verbal tension surrounding any form of interaction with my cherished GC. DS seemed torn between being loyal to his wife and wanting for himself and our GC an affectionate, relaxed and pleasant relationship with us. Admittedly, I felt these negative feelings a lot more intensely than my DH did as he seems able to detach himself emotionally from unpleasant interpersonal situations.

What I wish that I could say to DS and his wife - without worrying about punishing consequences - is that I don't just want to tolerate them grimly or dutifully but to enjoy being with them both. For that to happen, there needs to be the beginning of open discussion about what led to the relationship rupture from their perspective, listening to and being curious about my perspective too, some conversation about feelings of vulnerability, thoughts and narratives that have been playing in their minds, and, preferably, a step or three taken towards reconciliation before they even get onto the 'plane. I wish that I could add that this is in the best interests of their young children too, children being sensitive to "atmospheres" and influenced by their parents as role models.

What do you advise?

Thanks!

Smile interesting response, sounds as if you 'get' what I was thinking. Your memory box is a great idea, even if you have left this life someone can pass it on to them and they will know you loved and cared about them. I think I would want them to have it after they have left home. We see our parents very differently when we have a wider experience. This is what happened to me and I know our DC, who were never a problem, now understand just how fortunate they were when they see friends who were less fortunate. Children see their home life as normal until much later when they discover it was not. Some look back and see the damage their parents did.

I have seen the odd post on GN Nonnie where an estranging AC has made contact with their parents later in life, and it's been suspected that this was due to thoughts of inheritance.

Mr. S. and I have talked about that possible scenario and neither of us feel it would be appropriate to make changes to our wills if that were the case for us.

As for GC, that's a hard one. We did think long and hard about our GC and felt that yes, they are our GC but are strangers to us and it simply didn't feel right, leaving money to people we've never known, and in the case of our youngest GC, never even met.

Due to my parents divorce and my father's and paternal GM's subsequent behaviour, our sons never knew their paternal GGM. When she died, they each received a savings account book; remember those?; she'd put a little money away for them every Christmas.

They were about 11 and 9 when they received them and I remember feeling a little sad that they didn't appreciate what this lady, who they'd never known, had done for them on a regular basis.

We've opted for a 'memory' box; a card for every birthday and Christmas we've missed, a Christmas tree bauble for 'baby's 1st Christmas' and 'photos of extended family members they'll never know, that sort of thing.

It's a potential example isn't it, a parent who cuts out their parent(s) may well inadvertently be 'teaching' their own child(ren) that all relationships are disposable, including the one they have with their own parents.

"What happens when a child who has been told bad things about GPs and discovers the parent was not telling the truth?"; what indeed.

I remember some time ago a poster here on GN, who discovered following her mother's death, that she'd been lied too about the GP's she'd never known. She was clearly still upset by her experience and said she was finding it difficult to forgive her mother.

If parents lie to their children to 'explain' why some GP's are missing from their lives, the risk of their children discovering the truth and the potential damage that may do to their own relationship, is something only they can consider.

Surely there's no need for lies or to embellish the truth. A simple 'I don't want to see my parents which is why you don't see your GP's' would suffice, and then if additional questions were asked, 'I don't want to discuss it'; not ideal but better than lying especially if the truth wont suffice.

Don't let the 'hopelessness' of your situation prevent you from posting if you want too MacCavity. Yesterday was the 7th anniversary of finding out that our ES had blocked our 'phone; it was also his birthday.

Fast approaching the 7 year mark of our estrangement and here I am, still posting.

I couldn't have got this far without you all, and need you all to carry on.

Some random thoughts: If an adult has cut out family for whatever reason, will they rethink at some when they realise they may be cut out of a will? Sounds hard but I have seen how some argue about money and think they have rights, despite separation.

Will a child who has been cut off from GPs they know and love grow up thinking it is OK to cut off a parent and do the same to theirs?

What happens when a child who has been told bad things about GPs and discovers the parent was not telling the truth? Wondering how that could affect a child during puberty when they want to rebel.

Will a GP cut their GC out of a will because they haven't been allowed to contact them?

What do others think?

Such a comfort to read these positive and helpful posts.
I await the day with great hope when my lovely, lovely family member is reconciled to us. Thank you for this feeling of hope because without it I can’t cope with the despair.

You’re very welcome Dolcelatte - all of us need support and kindness on these threads otherwise there’s no point posting. X

Thank you Pantglas, Smileless and MacCavity for your comments.

I actually wonder if our AC realise how much they hurt us, whether it is premeditated hurt, casual cruelty, a lack of emotional intelligence, or just indifference.

What I will say is that the reconciliation has enabled me to see things more clearly, as I am close (or sort of) again, but still feel detached. When you are shut out, you don't know what's going on, you don't have the opportunity to observe, there are no clues. Also, you are so drowning in your own feelings of hurt, anger, and despair that your judgment is clouded - or, at least, mine was. Apart from my forays into anger and self-pity, I feel much stronger and able to cope now, and a lot of that is down to you lovely ladies. Thank you!

Such amazing, supportive posts on here. Sorry I have not contributed for a very long time due to the hopelessness of my situation. It is now 2 years since I have seen my only son and grandchild.

Just want you to know that reading your painful but incredibly honest posts does help me. Dolcelatte you put into words my feelings if ever I reconciled with my son. It’s true I could never feel the same about him and missing 2 years of a child’s life is the cruelest blow. A child we used to have staying with us for weekends since a baby.

We do try not to dwell on our pain and have a good and happy life without them. We don’t miss the complaints and put downs and treading on eggshells. Also have friends in the same position and can talk openly to family and friends who think the situation is monstrous. Thankfully it’s not a shameful secret.

My thanks to all of you.

Dear Dolcelatte and Pantglas I hope that neither of you ever feel unable to share here because you've reconciled with your EAC.

It's lovely to read about the positive experiences of others, and for me, it's helpful to hear about your doubts and fears. We remain estranged and it's my fears and doubts that make our estrangement a safer place to be for now, and maybe for ever.

The kindness and support that you both give is invaluable, and whatever the future may hold, you have both experienced the pain of estrangement which is why your input is so important.

This will be our 7th Christmas with estrangement and although I don't know why, I feel this one is going to be particularly difficult.

I think in part because of what you have described in your post D. We've missed so much that can never be replaced; that photographs and/or videos could never truly replicate. They are not snapshots of our memories, but the memories of others.

Perhaps there's an element of tiredness too, walking up this mountain for so long and never knowing if we'll ever reach the summit.

It's ES's birthday today; another stumbling block on our way up the mountain.

Oh Dolcelatte I could have written your post within the first twelve months of my reconciliation, almost word for word!

Especially your last few paragraphs, but you are so knowing about how you need to let these feelings come to the surface and try to let them drift off into the ether so that they don’t damage this new start.

It will get easier (I won’t say those feelings of unfairness disappear completely) and years to come you’ll be helping someone else come through those difficult early days.

It is hard to post on here from a position of being reconciled when so many haven’t but I think we do so to give hope that others can cling on to when they despair that things will never come good.

I’m sure that your heart is in the right place on this and others also see that x.

Good morning everybody and I hope that your weekend has got off to a good start! Thank you for your supportive comments Smileless.

Keeping on the theme of pets, I hope all of yours are safe and well on Bonfire Night and not too scared by the fireworks. We have already had a few premature fireworks here and my German Shepherd has been terrified. He has to be sedated and I keep him in the quietest room with classical music on, which seems to help.

I have been posting less often, not because I think or feel any less, but because I am conscious that I am in different territory to many on here in that things are moving comparatively positively for me. I was in such deep, deep pain when I first started posting and I know that other posters are still feel the same. It is like being in purgatory and you don't know how long you are going to be there. Will there be salvation or will you be tossed into the big pit where all hope has gone?

I think I would have been happy to hear of others who have achieved reconciliation, as it would have given me hope - Pantglas, you were a shining example and a total inspiration in this regard. But if there are some people who do not believe that they will ever be reconciled, I don't want to make their pain greater by being insensitive.

Not that my pain has entirely subsided. Everything seems a bit surreal at the moment. My daughter has gone to the opposite extreme, and is now sending texts virtually every day, photos and videos of DGD1 and regular long telephone calls. It is as though we are getting to know each other again and, to be honest, it is like speaking to a stranger in some respects.

I had a beloved daughter, I thought she had gone for good, she broke my heart, and now she is back. I am still numb, so find it hard to react. I think I am doing ok, as I make myself sound warm and friendly and we have amicable discussions about what we are both doing, her pregnancy, what DGD1 is doing - exactly the sort of conversations I would have expected to have for the last two years. But underneath I don't feel the same about her, as I don't know how she could hurt us all so much - to ghost anyone is cruel and cowardly, but to do it to your own family is something very hard for me to come to terms with. I hope I will change over time but, for now, it's how I feel.

It's as though I pressed pause on a television programme and then pressed play again, which is what I think she wants to do, but I have missed so much of the programme that I don't understand the characters or the plot any longer. I don't feel in pain in the same way, but nor do I feel joy if I am going to be frank. And I am very afraid of being hurt again. When a text arrives from her or her name flashes up on my 'phone, particularly the latter, I get a slightly sick feeling in my stomach which I think stems from nerves and it upsets my equilibrium for a while.

Don't get me wrong, I am pleased to hear from her and to receive pictures and updates on DGD1, who looks absolutely gorgeous, but it does make me feel sad at what I have missed. This morning DD has sent a text to say that she has found some videos of DGD1 as a baby and do we want to see them. Of course, I will say 'yes, please', but looking at them will be very bitter-sweet. To return to the tv analogy, it will be like viewing edited highlights after you have missed the live programme - a snapshot, but you weren't there, you didn't participate or share in the joy at the time, you weren't worth a ticket, even in the back row.

I will have to restrain myself from sending any sort of negative reply, won't I? The videos I know will trigger old feelings of hurt and anger and it will be difficult for me for the rest of the day.

I apologise for being negative when I know I have so much to be grateful for, but I am just telling as it is. My friends on here have been wonderful in keeping me on a sensible path, when sometimes I just want to lob a grenade and howl with anger and pain.

Afternoon ladies. Good to see you are feeling more settled Dolcelatte. Estrangement does change us forever, we are not the people we were before it happened. That's not necessarily all bad though because as you've posted D it is something we can learn from.

That's right Nonnie 'hate the sin and not the sinner' as the saying goes. As stated in the Children Act, children have a right to know their extended family which of course includes GP's, but of course if the parents are unwilling to facilitate this, it's virtually impossible.

It's a very good point about the possibility of making the situation worse itstormy. We did look into steps we could take to try and see our GC in the early days of our estrangement, but just couldn't see it being a positive outcome for us, our GC and the parents, if they were hell bent on preventing it.

Just our personal opinion though and certainly not a criticism of those who decide to pursue contact.

If your DH's brother's dog is a poodle cross that could be why his allergies aren't affected hugshelp as they don't shed their fur, and it's shedding loose fur that usually causes an allergic reaction.

The 'mouse house' sounds lovely, what a great idea; sounds like a 'des res' to me.

Good that you are keeping it going itstormy.

Good point about whether it would make it worse. For some nothing could make it worse if they have given up hope by all other means. If there is no contact I suspect they have nothing to lose. Where children are involved I suppose it would be important to have done all you could so that when they are older they would know you had always loved them and tried your best. In such a situation you could have no idea what they might have been told about you.

Still popping in now and then. Nothing very helpful to say other than we all seem to be sailing this ship together so guess we are ship mates.
Read a little saying this morning which went along the lines of "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger". Although it may not seem so at the time I think there is something in it. It certainly has coloured my view on a variety of family scenarios. Interesting about children having a Human Right. Based in the UK so don't know if it's the same. Could we enforce this though without making things worse? I certainly couldn't and I would worry that the children would be turned even more against me, if they knew I existed that is.. I do think they have the right to know about and have access to us but just can't see how this would work in a lot of our sorry situations. to all who are feeling hurt and rejected.

Dolcelatte Mon 28-Oct-19 11:38:23 Sorry, I can't, it was not online.

Hugs, I am so pleased that you are feeling a bit better. Just make sure that DH has a supply of anti-histamines when the hound comes to visit and you should be fine. I have a bit of an aversion to mice, unfortunately, but as we also have a cat they don't tend to visit very often!

@Nonnie - can you post a link to your source, please?

Thanks Hugs I learnt this week that children have a 'Human Right' to see both sides of their families and that parents and grandparents have the same right. This was news to me but it is a fact, not an opinion.

If anyone objects to me posting this please let me know and I will get it removed.

It's lovely to hear about your porpoises smiileless.
Nature is one of the things that DH and I get a lot from. Haven't been out lately, not been well, but the bird feeders have been attracting more and more visitors so we feel blessed to see them come.
Love to hear about your deer too pantglas. We were once out walking when a deer right ran across our path. Of course I wasn't quick enough with the camera but the memory is lovely.
Lovely to hear about your dogs too dolcelatte and even better to hear things are still moving on well. DH is allergic to most dogs and cats, but he thinks he's OK with his brother's dog as it has a different kind of hair. (sorry no idea about breeds or the technicalities) so we are hoping to have the dog lodge with us over Christmas for a few days while his brother visits other family. While I always dread Xmas apart from our ES yet again, I am looking forward to having a little bundle of love in our lives for a few days, and hoping DHs allergies are ok!
Bit better today so pegged the washing out and made a little mouse-house in the garden. We've seen the odd mouse helping itself to dropped birdfood and it's getting cold now. (Just a big plant-pot with a bit of extra covering and some hay inside but I think it might make a mousey des-res lol)
I would love to hear your new info Nonnie. x

Only just seen this thread so just skim read it. I stopped looking at the other one because it was so insensitive.

So many awful situations, must feel like a bereavement. I can't understand why anyone would behave in this way, well perhaps with an adult but never if children are involved unless there is likely to be harm done to them.

We don't hate the person who has done this to us, we don't want vengeance, we just want what is best for the children.

Is it OK to post some new information/advice I have had or would that be against the spirit of this thread?

Thanks Pantglas. Let’s hope the Welsh team are following that mantra, as I type!

Good to hear you’re well Dolcelatte- we have a saying in Welsh- ‘Dal i fynd, dal i gredu’ which roughly translates as Keep going, keep believing.

Good morning.

I have also popped in a few times but there has been no activity for a while. I tend to think that this may be a positive, as in 'no news is good news', but it is good to hear that everyone is ok or, at least, coping with the unnatural situation of estrangement from a child, whether adult or not.

Smileless and Pantglas, it is lovely to hear your descriptions and pleasure in the joys of nature. In all of my pain, my dogs were my biggest comfort, even more than my family in a way, because there is no need to explain, they just understand and love you unconditionally (you know, like you thought your DC would....!!!). That and looking at the sea or mountains or flowers and feeling that, however great my problems might seem to me, it is necessary to see the beauty (and cruelty) of the world in order to gain a sense of perspective.

All continues to go well here and I feel far more positive than I have for a while. But, whatever, this experience has changed me forever, and I hope that I have learned from it and can truly move forward. It shakes you to the core and undermines your self-belief in who you are and what you are when your own child rejects you. Now is not the time for a post-mortem, and parent-child relationships can be very complex, but in time maybe I will understand.

In the meantime, the sun is shining, I have DD2 to stay, and England are in the rugby World Cup final!

How lovely smileless2012 - whenever I see something like that it cheers me up no end!

We were returning from holiday in the wee small hours a few years ago and passed a deer munching at the roadside - it scarpered as we drove nearer and we’ve never seen one there since day or night but I remember how uplifted I felt!

oops should have put 'there were' not there was.