AEC thread. Feel free to chat or add helpful resources here.

You posted Ironflower that you hope one day to be able to tell your parents how much they have hurt you and then go no contact, so I was wondering if you've thought about how you could do this.

From what you've posted previously, it doesn't look as if you'd be able to have a conversation with them about this because they would simply shut you down. We have to be so careful about what we put in writing as the recipient can try and use it against us at a later date. Sections of what have been written can be taken out of context in an effort to twist the meaning by not giving the whole story.

Your family sounds lovely; your H, your sons who are "making great strides" and your little girl having cut her first two teeth (we do feel for them when they're teething don't we).

I do hope you can cease all contact in time and be left alone in peace to enjoy the life with your family that you deserve.

You've hit the nail on the head in your post @ 5.23 when it comes to public forums Madgran where there is open debate and discussion.

For me it's obvious when a post is made to deliberately hurt another poster. They are personal, when it's a very personal subject like estrangement it can be deliberately invalidating.

As I posted recently on this thread, invalidation is saying for example that AC never estrange from healthy loving parents; estrangement doesn't happen in an otherwise good relationship due to a third party; an AC who ends up in an abusive adult relationship had previously 'learned' that such relationships are normal; that EP's who say they did nothing to deserve their estrangement are 'unicorns' and that an EP who says they have been/are being abused by their AC going no contact are not being abused.

These are all things that have been posted here on GN directed at EP's. Nothing of this nature has ever been directed at EAC and nor should it be.

It is not for anyone to say whether or not what someone else has experienced is abuse. You cannot possibly know if being estranged by your AC is abusive unless you've experienced it. Not all EP's would say it is but everyone's experience to a certain extent is unique to them. It would be like saying to an EAC talking about their childhood experiences 'oh no that's not abuse'.

If people are going to be made to feel they cannot disagree any discussion or debate will be shut down. There are closed sites for both EP's and EAC, I only have personal experience of the former, and on those sites not everyone is in agreement. All contributors are estranged parents, but not all of their experiences and reactions to those experiences are the same.

Enabler thinking says, "It's better to support an abuser by validating them (by saying nothing or agreeing with their 'Flat Earth') then to face their 'wrath' yourself even when you 'see' their bad/abusive behavior towards 'others'."

That makes sense Holy Hannah

However I think there is a risk of assuming that the reason a poster on a public forum is agreeing with another poster, who is viewed as "an abuser", is because they want to "avoid their wrath". When it might just be that on some occasions they agree with person and on other occasions they don't.

You and I have had discussions over time, agreed on some things, not on others. Are we enabling each other when we agree or just agreeing? Are we avoiding wrath when we disagree or just disagreeing?

Starblaze -- The way my husband and I learned to navigate potential abuse and circumvent 'it'/stay ahead of the abuse tactics, was to play a Jeopardy! style 'game' called "What are THEY Gonna Do Next!" -- And then We'd 'play out', from understanding/seeing our abusers, what THEY would do/try next.

When you are a lone victim/survivor it's a rough reality. When you find real support and gain self confidence and add a solid partner/friend(s) who also understand 'the games' abusers play? You come to understand that those who don't support/agree with healthy are enablers and that is almost as gross as being an abuser.

Enabler thinking says, "It's better to support an abuser by validating them (by saying nothing or agreeing with their 'Flat Earth') then to face their 'wrath' yourself even when you 'see' their bad/abusive behavior towards 'others'."

Ironflower I meant "them acknowledging their culpability" might never happen ...just to be clear. NC is totally in your hands, when and if you are ready.

Ironflower I am so glad to hear that you are doing really well overall. How lovely re your little daughter!

LC is a start for you isn't it. Maybe NC has to come for your sake, without them ever acknowledging their culpability in your hurt? To be honest, it probably will never happen, from what you have described previously.

But only you can decide that and there are other EAC who have been through this who can help, advise and support you whilst you make those decisions.

I agree with Madgran that there are times when "agreeing to disagree" is both valid and healthy. There are limitations on 'that' though. The only time is when BOTH SIDES have an equally valid argument like, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

Very true Holy Hannah ...chickens and eggs have a lot to answer for!

Thankyou for replying to me Starblaze.

*Well Madgran I suppose I'm just not used to anyone but my mum following me around and butting in to my conversations with other people to tell me she doesn't agree with me.
It's been used to abuse me and invalidate me, with no care for me as a person.

When it is people who you avoid and who definitely don't like you (like my mum) constantly (and I mean constantly) disagreeing directly with you, it is always going to feel personal*

I can truly understand that Starblaze.

I think the difficulty on a public forum is that when a point is made, others will inevitably read it and as part of a debate will say if they don't agree or maybe add a different perspective for consideration ...not focusing on the poster but on the point being made. If a point is being made as part of advice to another poster asking for help, then inevitably someone will tend to say that they don't agree when giving their advice as it will contradict whatever has been said before. That helps someone asking for advice to pick up on different perspectives to consider I think.

On a public forum it seems to me that there will always be some who one thinks similarly to, and some who one does not, just as in "real life". However on a public forum, with discussion written down, I think that that element of relationships is heightened and can become "bigger" than intended. It also means that the same posters may agree/disagree on different discussions as a regular occurrence.

Try to imagine how you would feel if every time you looked at gransnet, there was your name or your words in bold with "I disagree with this" without any acknowledgement or understanding of the rest of what you said or why you might think/feel that way

I can honestly say that I really wouldn't care much, its just a viewpoint on a specific point/manty different points made, not personal, just a viewpoint. I will always, I think, see disagreement as part of a debate to be a good thing, providing me with different perspectives to consider. However I can see why, with your experiences, you might see it differently

*Unfortunately I can't just change how it makes me feel because someone else says I shouldn't be bothered by it. I can only work on it for myself.
So there we are, perhaps it will stop now, perhaps that behaviour will be enabled further.... let's see.
If not, I've said what I think/feel and to be honest, its really not bothering me nearly as much recently and I'm getting really good at just ignoring people who want to hurt me. My mental health is more important than people who really don't care or understand me*

I'm not sure why you see disagreement in a public forum discussion as wanting to hurt you but again I can imagine that your experiences that you have described might well trigger that response. It is good to hear that "it" is bothering you less than it used to, that is personal growth isn't it.

"Enabling" of behaviours seems to be to be another perspective on people discussing, agreeing with some things, not agreeing with others. Again I suppose one's different experiences can influence one's interpretation on that especially if comments are seen as personal as opposed to part of discussion.

I am wondering if you also notice when your name is highlighted because someone is saying that they agree with you?

I've quite honestly seen these adult children along with cruel and abusive and never a reason for estrangement and let it go because upset people say upset things. I have even patiently answered people questioning me for estranging and thinking I shouldn't have

Yes upset people do say upset things. In my view you are entitled to give a viewpoint on that, which might well be helpful for others to consider another perspective - maybe part of their personal growth? My understanding is that you feel that it is kind to not comment; others might feel that it would be kinder/more helpful to give an alternative perspective. Different viewpoint, both valid, just different.

I am conscious that in saying all the above it can be seen as disagreement and perhaps be interpreted as "trying to hurt", within the context of this discussion. That is not the intention at all. I am trying to explain my own perspective on discussion and debate, presenting a different viewpoint. Your perspective gives me food for thought. Thankyou for that.

Ironflower -- There is so much over-lap in abusive/dysfunctional behavior/mentality it is insanity making.

DARVO is just so 'normal' to abusers. Deny -- "I didn't/don't abuse You." Attack -- "Look at all the terrible things you do!" Reverse the Victim/Offender Roles -- "YOU are abusing ME by telling Me I'm not perfect/objecting to my behavior and when I refuse to see Me as any part of the 'problem' and You walk away? I AM the real 'victim'."

As rosecarmel said, "I'm not going to agree with something because someone told me I had to" and I agree.

I know that using 'the silent treatment' as a way to control and manipulate is abuse. For example, an AC says to their parent(s), "If you don't do whatever then I will keep my children from you." is abuse. Clearly that is also NOT a 'No Contact' situation as there is obviously interaction/potential for abuse.

No Contact has been discussed ad nauseam AND has a dedicated thread so I won't repeat myself other then to say, 'No Contact' is NOT abuse.

I will not "agree to disagree" on that subject because that is fact/truth/reality. I cannot and am not 'abusing' my 'family' or husband's by going and staying 'No Contact'. I am not 'abusing' them and they in turn are not abusing Us -- Minus the harassment and misuse of CPS of course, but so long as their concerns were 'justified' even THAT doesn't count.

The reality of my situation is, my 'mom' would say 'No Contact' is abuse, which = The Earth is Flat. I KNOW that No Contact is NOT abuse/The Earth is Round.

Now my 'mom' can believe the Earth is flat/No Contact is abuse and can try to gas-light Me into believing that as well... BUT it still won't make her opinion/belief into reality or make My 'Round Earth' view wrong.

I cannot "agree to disagree" with her 'Flat Earth' belief because sometimes facts/reality just make one 'side' WRONG.

I agree with Madgran that there are times when "agreeing to disagree" is both valid and healthy. There are limitations on 'that' though. The only time is when BOTH SIDES have an equally valid argument like, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

Ironflower I really understand how you feel. You just can't reason with unreasonable people and I waste far too much of my life trying. Glad things are otherwise going well

Well Madgran I suppose I'm just not used to anyone but my mum following me around and butting in to my conversations with other people to tell me she doesn't agree with me.

It's been used to abuse me and invalidate me, with no care for me as a person.

When it is people who you avoid and who definitely don't like you (like my mum) constantly (and I mean constantly) disagreeing directly with you, it is always going to feel personal.

Of course most nice normal people would hear me when I say it makes me uncomfortable and stop doing it. It wouldn't be hard to just not say that to me.

The exact same way I have been pulled up for making statements that could come across as generalised (just because I did not add a disclaimer or that the reverse is possibly true when I haven't implied otherwise) and I have then made a huge effort not to do that because I am not here to upset anyone or trample feelings.

I should not need to do that on this thread though where the context is abusive parents, especially when I have explained that more times than is reasonable

I've quite honestly seen these adult children along with cruel and abusive and never a reason for estrangement and let it go because upset people say upset things. I have even patiently answered people questioning me for estranging and thinking I shouldn't have.

Try to imagine how you would feel if every time you looked at gransnet, there was your name or your words in bold with "I disagree with this" without any acknowledgement or understanding of the rest of what you said or why you might think/feel that way.

Although, as I said its not really something that happens to me away from gransnet now I am estranged. Possibly because my tone of voice is gentle/non forceful and that is possibly difficult to read in type.

Unfortunately I can't just change how it makes me feel because someone else says I shouldn't be bothered by it. I can only work on it for myself.

So there we are, perhaps it will stop now, perhaps that behaviour will be enabled further.... let's see.

If not, I've said what I think/feel and to be honest, its really not bothering me nearly as much recently and I'm getting really good at just ignoring people who want to hurt me. My mental health is more important than people who really don't care or understand me.

I am starting to just laugh at it and play bingo with myself. Definite improvements made.

Personal growth, I has it.

Magran77 - I'm doing really well. My life is so much better after going LC. Thursdays are just ruined because that's the day my mum likes to ring 3-25 times. If I dismiss the call she keeps going and going and going. I was on a phone consultant with my sons OT (expensive) and she called over 15 times, wouldn't stop.

I'm angry that she is burning bridges with my extended family. She delights in telling me how many people are siding with her. I know that I could shut that down with a single sentence, none of them know I was abused or that it was covered up, but that outs my abuser, who was 13-16 when he did it, and is now a depressed veteran. I'm not sure I'm ready for repercussions of that.

My life though is great. Great husband and kids. Baby girl just cut her first two teeth this week, sleeps like a dream and already says mama. The boys are making massive strides.

Dreams / nightmares I think are the worst. I would really just like my parents to know how much they've hurt me and then go NC. Every time I try and talk though I get DARVO'd so bad

Madgran77

rosecarmel Still floating!

And for that, I am grateful- ?

rosecarmel Still floating!

Whatever!

Floats yer boat .. ?

I'm not going to agree with something because someone told me I had to

I'm a bit confused as to why you are making this point now … I the discussion is about saying one disagrees, not about "agreeing to disagree!" (I know it was also referred to by another poster but wasn't really sure why).

On the original point, I think saying one disagrees with a particular point is a normal part of discussion and debate; other posters apparently do not agree that it is a normal part of discussion, and find it aggressive which is unfortunate. .

However as you raised the "agree to disagree" phrase, I personally find the phrase a relevant one in acknowledging in a discussion that two people just aren't going to agree. I don't see it as locking anyone into a particular view.

Still, we just think differently on it and that is fine too. Hearing your viewpoint on it though does of course give me food for thought on my own view - using my ever open mind.

I'm not going to agree with something because someone told me I had to-

I get that people have been say the agree to disagree thing since? And that people will continue to-

But I dont have to-

Why?

Because at some point I might change my mind about something and see things differently- It leaves room for the mind to be open and not locked into a particular view -- because I was told to-

Makes perfect sense to me break from conversational cliches-

Cross posts Madgran. It's good to listen to another's perspective especially if it falls outside of your own experience, even if you don't ultimately agree.

I think it's far better to disagree with someone rather than seek to invalidate them.

Starblaze -- Thinking on the clock analogy, I firmly believe that if I was a 'stopped clock' my 'mom' (the 'perfect' time-piece) would be shocked at the concept that even 'it' was "correct" twice daily, even though that is reality.

The desire to prove others' wrong when all the evidence says the opposite is much like, IF I am 'right' twice a day, then that means she must be 'correct' the other 1438 minutes a day. That sorta does sound like perfection and her inability to accept reality, that even a 'stopped clock' is sometimes "correct", is the dysfunctional thinking.

It is dizzying. That said, once you embrace that you are correct at least twice daily, you can work up to a healthier balance.

Enjoy your cross eyed / square eyed evening Starblaze ? I know what you mean about too much internet

I'm glad you've found it helpful posting here ggg.

All of us who have experienced estrangement have had awful experiences so it's good to be able to share.

Surely in discussion saying that one disagrees and giving the reasons why is just part of that discussion, enabling others to look at different perspectives. When someone tells me they disagree with my viewpoint, and reasonably gives their reasons why, I see it as a means for me to consider the validity or otherwise of my own viewpoint and to consider my own perspective and theirs. I may as a result change my view or I may not but either way the process is a good one

Really!! I don't think there's anything wrong with directly disagreeing with people as long as you do so politely.

Being disagreed with doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong, just that someone doesn't agree with you. If you disagree with someone that's not saying that you are always right.

What would happen to GN for example of everyone agreed with everyone else; it would get rather boring wouldn't it.

I think I've looked at the Internet too much today and I'm going cross eyed... Enjoy the rest of your day all and nice to meet you ggg

Holyhannah

I find it quite aggressive when people directly disagree people... Like why make a point to let me know you don't agree with me in a general discussion? Why not just give your view and leave me out of it?

Its as if people think that somehow they are better and righter just by virtue of being them somehow and disagreeing directly with me makes me wrong..

Well of course I'm probably wrong sometimes lol but it takes a special kind of person to think they are always right