AEC thread. Feel free to chat or add helpful resources here.

Thank you Laragransnet. This is GN where amongst others there are estranged parents and GP's reading and posting. There are numerous posts describing personal experiences which include those whose estrangement is due to a third party, and where estrangement came despite a loving and healthy parent/child relationship.

Generalisations that attempt to undermine another's experience are insensitive and cruel.

EP's aren't upset and/or offended by the experiences that EAC have been through, we are upset and offended by generalisations and post after post of what EP's 'say' and 'do'.

In my experience it's EAC who are upset and offended when they see a post from a non abusive EP. We're 'unicorns'; AC never estrange from decent loving parents etc. etc. etc.

A good point Pantglas. There's a huge difference IMO to not feeling comfortable posting on a particular thread even when you've been welcomed and supported there, if not always agreed with, to seeing on other threads that sweeping generalisations are being made which undermine and invalidate your personal experience.

The majority of posters on the estrangement forum are well aware of what regular posters say about their own situation, so to constantly see the undermining and invalidating of those experiences is IMO inexcusable.

SB I like your last post.

Trying to get some clarity here.

I know growing up that my own mother was at times abusive to her children. However and I don't think I am in denial about this, my experince was differen to that of my siblings, not least because I worked abroad for a good few years away from the birth family.

And also when I was growing up, yes my mother was still suffering with her mental health but she had found some solutions and my own childhood I remember as actually quite happy.

The problems started as I may have said before when I married l Iater in life and had a child of my own.

I didn't make the best choice of a husband but looking back it was really noticeable as some have said that there was jealousy amongst my female siblings. Also I was the youngest and it was almost as if they still wanted to treat me as somehow helpless and a child even though I was a grown woman and had a child of my own.

The scenario played out I left my emotionally abusive husband who then really exploited the cracks in my birth family and portrayed ME as a controlling, abusive mother. And my siblings and his family the flying monkeys.

As I have said, I have to work really hard with that attempted 'flip over' and remind myself that I am NOT controlling.

Appropriate boundaries yes, understandably strong boundaries given all that.

But when I think if things like how i have kind of mapped out a path where my DD can become more independent and rejoice in the fact that she does things outside of our small family with her peers - I realise that that is the concrete proof that I am NOT what they accuse me of.

Thats the short version of my understanding of it. Gosh, taken me a decade to put that down relatively succinctly in a few sentences. But it feels good and healthy to do so.

I knew about the projection thing before but good to read and be reminded of it here. It is almost as if lockdown and Covid threw all these things into focus and at the same time created a lot of confusion in our lives certainly as the FOG of abuse came, cleared and went during the tough times. And then reappeared and cleared again.

Make sense anyone?

Again also, if you catch me not telling any adult child when I think they are making a wrong choice... Or holding my breath when I think they need to change their own behaviour or otherwise just not giving my heartfelt help or opinion in my own words in my own way to anyone in any situation then maybe I do have bias rather than just education, understanding and genuine valid concern

Until then, perhaps we can go back to talking about abusive parents, the fact that more of them exist than anyone (including me) would ever like to admit and all the methods they use to abuse us so we can avoid the same happening to future generations being parents ourselves capable of the same mistakes without help

As this thread was intended

Oh hope for estranged grandparents.

Slightly different but again, I haven't said this thread is only for EAC but that coming here to argue or pull us up for talking negatively about estranged parents when we are talking about abusive parents isn't really on and I don't really understand what anyone gets out of it.

I posted on the hope for estranged grandparents of my concerns about the misuse of court by abusive grandparents.

That wasn't really about me, just my concern for minor children out there.

Also while I was saying that, I also said that there are situations where children lose good grandparents and that's not on and I do think good grandparents should have access... Its just that the process can and does cause all sorts of negative issues for all involved, especially children... Which is just the truth.

Its just that no one wanted to focus on that part of what I was saying.

The support thread is for everyone dealing with estrangement Pantglas I've been told as much several times but mostly no I don't post there, I tried to but it didn't feel comfortable for anyone, I didn't feel wanted there so I have left it. I have no bad feeling towards anyone about that.

If a thread asks for support only, that's what I give.

If a thread asks for advice or help, that's what I give.

This thread was marked for EAC. That doesn't mean non EAC can't post here but what it DOES mean is that we are always going to be talking about abusive parents on it. If estranged parents feel uncomfortable that's not really our fault. The context is abusive parents.

The EPs mentioned are generally our abusive parents and everyone who uses this this thread as it was intended has clearly been abused by their parents.

Hope that helps

Message deleted by Gransnet. We felt this post singled out another poster and although didn't go as far as a personal attack, was quite confrontational. We thought best to delete it.Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Digging deep to find the compassion and self compassion to deal with these situations can be so hard.

All okay at this end. Have just made for the first time eggs hollandaise for breakfast. I know that is a side note, but it is kind of part of the new life we are leading. Don't know if DD will like it but resolved not to be offended if it is not her cup of tea.

I think I have really missed school as support network. I think they really saw me, you know the ups and downs and strengths and weaknesses and some understanding for bringing up teen in Covid.

So I'm really hoping this week will be a new start. Almost as if the new term gives me a shove forward to focus on future and not on past so much.

Also, just to throw this in I'm resolved to learn to drive, but that friends is another thread...

Laragransnet I think that was a balanced response to a biased situation.

This thread is clearly marked for EAC. Meaning we should not have to clarify who we are talking about to estranged parents who make the choice to visit this thread.

We have and are talking about abusive parents.

Everything abusive people do is abusive. If EAC want to say their parent sneezed abusively they should be able to do so here without an estranged parent pulling them up.

Given that gransnet advised me to start this thread back in the day to avoid upsetting estranged parents by talking about our experiences and to avoid estranged parents questioning or doubting our experiences...

I'd say that is a failure on gransnets part and it should have been made clear that we are safe to talk without those who clearly do not need to be here and only do so to cause trouble when you addressed the issue.

An excellent post Pantglas

No one is defending abusive parents or attacking victims of child abuse Starblaze and if you're implying that's what Pantlgas is doing with her post, you should apologise.

"This thread is supporting victims of any kind of child abuse" then why does it so often degenerate into lengthy posts attacking EP's and seeking to tar them all with the abusive brush?

everything here is in the context of abusive parents well yes that's true because unless it's about abusive parents, and that is not in the thread title, it's not wanted.

For example except no one has found an adult child who says they walked away from anything good. Wrong; there was a poster a few months ago who has been reconciled with her son after he contacted her and said he should never have estranged her.

Best case is almost always they moved from one abusive situation to a different one OR they got emotionally healthier and stayed away for that reason

So that's OK is it? That's perfectly acceptable because it's 'attacking' EP's?

The constant invalidating of EP's and EGP's experiences in GN is appalling. It's sad that some find it necessary to invalidate the experiences of others in order to give validation to their own.

This is the EAC thread, everything here is in the context of abusive parents.... I hope no one would come here and defend abusive parents

This thread is supporting victims of any kind of child abuse..... I hope no one would come here and attack victims of child abuse in any way.

I always hope.

I do believe HolyHannah that it is possible to have a good life after being estranged from loved ones, don’t you?

I believe it’s possible for estranging children not to enjoy their lives following the event and it then shows in every word and deed.

It’s almost as if they can’t accept the acceptance estranged parents come to after a certain point and move on with their lives. As if they want them in purgatory forever, bewailing their fate and helplessness.

I believe that estranging children are only truly happy when they accept what they’ve done and don’t constantly justify it ad nauseum.

I also believe that estranged parents (and I was one until reconciliation) can move on to a different happiness and am pleased to see the evidence on these threads which so seems to infuriate you.

greengreengrass -- Abusers are the masters of the 'typical abuser turnaround' also called projection. It can also be a way to change a narrative/story to portray themselves as an innocent victim.

Abusive EP's always say the same things and then when called on it, pull out all the usual 'Abusers Handbook' lines. They think they are unique and 'special' and that no one can see through them because a lot of people don't or it takes a long time to wake up to their true nature and not the false self they project.

Abusive parents/people almost always march out the same tired lines.

The basic theme of which is, they are innocent victims of their horrible/'bad' child(ren) or the evil partner (the 3rd party influencer/in-law) and just don't know what to "do". They are "damned if they 'do'/damned if they 'don't' " and yet they never take any advice that might improve their relationship because that shows they may have done 'something' to deserve their estrangement.

They claim their AC "re-write history" and change their childhood which translates to -- "My AC finally sees me for what I am, now that I can no longer manipulate them, so I must ramp up my abuse to try to regain control."

Abusers are all about CONTROL. "Our adult children are trying to 'control' Us!" is another often used 'line'. Just like using Our children as pawns, the idea/thought of trying to control our abusers never occurs. Abusers talk about being 'in control' and AC who just want a two-way street/equality are clearly try to "turn the tables" and control THEM.

Again, this is where their dysfunctional thinking comes of the tracks like them being able to "better parent" Our children then We can... Their thought/belief that their AC want to 'control' them is proof that they see themselves as "superior" and the one 'in charge'/control. Giving up that 'control' to them means they are 'lesser' (which is what healthy thinkers call normal) aka THEY are not "special" so therefore their abusive behavior can no longer be 'explained away'. In other words, they'd have to be accountable for their behavior like other normal/healthy thinkers.

Just like my own 'mom' who blames everyone shunning her on her 'overwhelming awesomeness' and not the crappy way she behaves. She would tear down anyone who objected/reacted to her crap but not see that people were reacting to HER and not attacking her. Objecting to her abuse meant YOU are 'abusing' HER.

The best/funniest one is, when an abusive EP grasps that their AC is truly done with their crap. They pull one of two lines... "My adult children didn't walk away from ME, I walked away from them!" or act like they are happy their adult child(ren) 'walked away' and that it was the best thing for them and ended their "abuse". Either way, other dysfunctional thinkers cheer-lead on those beliefs.

Both of those mentalities give the illusion of them being in emotional 'control' but it really is just covering that THEY no longer 'have control' of their AC. The only abuse most No Contact parents have endured is the fact they were walked away from. No Contact is NOT abuse. No one can abuse someone they have no interactions with. You can't be abused in absentia.

And of course my fave line is always, "Sometimes AC's DO estrange from 'good' families..." except no one has found an adult child who says they walked away from anything 'good'. Best case is almost always they moved from one abusive situation to a different one OR they got emotionally healthier and stayed away for that reason. Neither scenario makes the EP a true victim of anything.

As Madgran has posted, I hope so too Ironflower.

I hope you'll be able to focus on your own life and the life of your DD greengreengrass.

What those of us who are on the receiving end of lies and manipulation come to understand is that our lives are healthier, happier and far more productive when we cease to allow people to treat us this way.

You have a life with your DD and don't need 'phone calls or offers of support from your ex husband or any family members who believe his lies.

The current pandemic has for many who are estranged raised and answered the question, will those who have estranged us take these unusual and frightening times to make contact.

For many it seems that the answer is no. For Mr. S. and myself it was what we expected and TBH after more than 7.5 year, it's better this way.

Ironflower I am wondering how you are feeling now? You said how angry you were and that is entirely understandable on the basis of what you described. I hope you are feeling a little less fraught and can find help to make the right decisions for you and your children moving forward.

on the internet series about narcissism there was a part where Dr. so and so (can't remember sorry) name

said

they tell you they love you...but this is like...

their version of love is not wine
it's grape juice

it might look at first sight like love, but it only has the appearance of it...

I really like to think I know what love is, having been through pandemic with DD and faced many tough times over 10 years...

well said Rc.

Just thinking think me and DD and me as a single parent have come through the worst of it now, I mean the pandemic.

Ex and co. did their usual thing - i.e. not offering any support or even a phone call - he was hoping I should think that we would fall apart.

But here we ARE. Quiet Sunday. No drama. Not much money but so far bills are paid. School on Thursday. Take a load off hopefully.

"And when I started asserting myself that was when it all became really nasty."

Drama seems to be the default/preferred response to assertion, when the other person/people want to dominate and control the situation instead of communicate, reach an understanding and grow-

It can get lonely and isolating, standing on your own two feet, standing up for a healthier future for your children- Especially as a single parent, more so during a pandemic-

But it beats the heck out of going through the daily hell of ongoing, manipulative drama- It beats the heck out of being afraid to leave and breaking harmful patterns-

Zero empathy is rooted in fear and ignorance- It's a facade, one that can come across as confidence, as having it "all together", having all their ducks in a row-

No small amount of time is devoted to CPS investigations that were initiated by people who simply do not like the way a parent has chosen to raise their child-

From dirty little faces and feet of children who love to play outside to religious choices- Family and neighbors can indeed be judgemental juggernauts, using institutions like CPS to seek a specific end, to either inconvenience or attempt to force people to be "like them"-

Above comment is one of the most insightful things I've ever read about this dynamic.

My now estranged relatives and ex husband used cps as astick to beat me with, emotionally.

I did become stronger about it.

I remember when DD was born, that I spent a lot of time during the pregnancy reflecting on what sort of mother I wanted to be. And still do. Searching out new information, considering new situations, new challenges. it is hard especially in a pandemic.

I was never offered useful or appropriate help by these people as a mother.

It was always 'help' with strings attached, i.e. they didn't ask me what i thought was best to do, in a situation, or even if I wanted help.

They offered their version of what they thought I should be doing. And when I said no thanks they kicked off.

Ex never offered genuine help. It was I'm afraid always so that he could appear to others as if he was doing the right thing. But no empathy. None at all.

And when I started asserting myself that was when it all became really nasty.

I honestly believe they never viewed my daughter as a child, she was some sort of possession to them. The whole family.

Not really a person at all.

I have made my mistakes but I have really put the effort it, with sometimes very few resources.

Thank you for describing the 'typical abuser turnaround' so clearly.

Sometimes when I get tired it goes round it my head.

And I struggle to get clarity.

They do vary from one place to the next, but they can be used as a "tactic" everywhere- Why? Because CPS "has to" investigate reports-

No small amount of time is devoted to CPS investigations that were initiated by people who simply do not like the way a parent has chosen to raise their child-

From dirty little faces and feet of children who love to play outside to religious choices- Family and neighbors can indeed be judgemental juggernauts, using institutions like CPS to seek a specific end, to either inconvenience or attempt to force people to be "like them"-

Starblaze -- "I was very angry when my mum accused me of using the children as weapons. It was the first time I had ever heard that term. It goes completely against my nature to do anything like that." -- Exactly. A typical abuser 'turn-around'.

As a child abuse victim, after the gas-lighting (which I consider the worst offense abusers do) the projection is right along side. It's the, "I'm not abusive! You are abusive toward ME!" mentality and, "The ugly, dirty, manipulative crap I do? NO. I am not doing 'that'... But YOU are using your children as pawns..." -- which of course is probably what they did/tried to do.

As for my 'family' and handling the local Child Protection Agency all I can say is they vary from country to country and jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

The way We handled ours was, before we had Our first, reported to them that once 'certain people' knew We had an infant in Our care, that 'that' was sure to make Our abusers 'remember' how useless/incompetent We are and just how unsafe/potentially abusive/neglectful We might BE to that child. I find that idea pathetically humorous.

Of course My/Our abusers believe We are going to be 'bad'/abusive/incompetent parents... They internally 'know' THEY were crappy parents and I think 'know' that behavior is passed down.

So Our abusers KNOW We might/could possibly abuse Our children -- Just like THEY did THEIR child(ren). So their 'concern' IS 'justified'. Their dysfunctional thinking comes off the rails at this point -- They think that somehow that makes them 'better' and more qualified to protect/'look after' Our children then We can.

If you failed as a parent/one or more of your AC have gone No Contact and told You that YOU are the 'issue' and are with-holding the grand-children for that 'reason'? I side with the AC every time because no healthy person turns down healthy relations with other 'safe' adults/family. Children are exhausting and the more help/love/support the better.

Sooo... IF some poor EP who offered all kinds of 'help' and baby-sitting and setting up rooms etc. and is rebuffed? There is a 'reason' and it's obviously a "reason" because I remember the first time I felt okay with leaving/trusting my child to someone else's 'care' and in a space they 'set up' for their young house-guests. When You never feel 'at home' in your own home as a child, when someone says, "My home is Your 'home' and this is the space We (as healthy people) offer to You and yours as a 'safe place' to stay at when You want..." We can feel like, "What's the 'catch'?"

Healthy people/thinkers look at Me and say/remind Me -- "Love isn't a transaction. Love is freely given." And I can say back, "Not in my experiences but... I try every day to improve."

The calling of CPS, is what I'm referring to-

Starblaze

Ironflower that's all so completely awful. Your children aren't safe with those people and neither are you. The further you get away from them the better you will feel. There is absolutely nothing good there.

Please keep yourself and your children safe.

As for the whole saying about using children as weapons...

The only people who would think that children are or could be used as weapons (objects) instead of little people to be loved and cherished are the sort of people who would use children as weapons (objects).

Like with Holyhannah and her parents calling cps on her for no good reason. No one who truly cares about their grandchildren as people, rather than objects to be argued over, would make a false report like that.

I do apologize, I was under the impression that it was a concern and not a circumstance that had occurred- Was this recent or past history?

Ironflower hopefully Holyhannah can give you some advice but, honestly I doubt you would have anything to worry about and they know that it can be used as revenge, control or an abuse tactic.

I was very angry when my mum accused me of using the children as weapons. It was the first time I had ever heard that term. It goes completely against my nature to do anything like that.

It did give me some insight into how my children could be seen as a loss of things rather than people and it did make me realise that she had used my children many times to abuse me.

Far too many examples to go into but here is one of many: My son who was 2 at the time threw a little paddy over a toy in town. My mum didn't even give me time to rectify it, just hissed in my ear that I was a bad mum and so embarrassing. She then stormed off while I comforted him. Just one of the many ways she made me feel like a bad mum because I was inexperienced and thought she was right.

Sadly, when a relationship breaks down with family, the children come away with it. That's not malice or using children as weapons. It's: I don't enjoy my relationship with you and my children are part of the package.

Happy mum is happy children. I'm happier without her so so are they.