AEC thread. Feel free to chat or add helpful resources here.

Madgran I think you missed my point a bit. I need a walk though, maybe explain later.

*If I said:
Given my experience of (whoever I'm talking to) as a person, the way I have seen you treat others and the things you have said over time regarding your estrangement, I can see you are clearly abusive and you are likely responsible for your own estrangement.

It would totally get deleted

So maybe it's not me being passive aggressive, maybe it's just me trying to put things as nicely as possible*

I don't think that example would be passive aggressive, although of course others may disagree. I'm not really sure its putting things nicely either as it is directly labelling another poster who one hasn't met, don't know and even though one may have valid views about their behaviour (from ones own experiences etc) it is making a very personal judgement on a public forum. I would view that statement in the same way as I view saying someone is "damaged" on a public forum, for the same reasons

In the past I have seen some very effective posts and also (I hope) done some myself, referencing very specific descriptions of behaviour by a poster and then pointing out a view politely on why the response to it has been what it has been by whoever is estranging/seen as a problem or whatever. Done that way, posts are not deleted because they are not personal, just descriptive and then giving a view on the consequences. That sounds a bit simplistic but I think you probably get the gist of the point

Regarding the other things you mention, although I agree with you that I have seen at least some of those things happen (not saying the others didn't, I just haven't seen them) I have seen them happen to a wider set of posters than EAC.

As I have said many times before I tend to focus on the points being made not on the poster making them. It is not my place to judge them/label them as an "abuser", or "damaged" or otherwise. To me posters can agree or disagree, debate, tell each other if they think something done/said is unfair or wrong and that is not the same thing

It is always good to meet people who have become the driver/navigator of their own lives. I suppose we all have to get ourselves to that point as we grow up but for some it is so much harder than for others, for so many different reasons.

That's an interesting observation Madgran and worthy of some thought.

Yes rosecarmel that is so true...we all want our parents and it must be very hard for those who have estranged themselves. Something else that I have observed and supported in many instances over the years.

Can I ask a genuine question ...is it a want for parents as one want them to be as parents or for as they were/are?
Presumably the former but I am not sure whether I should make that assumption based only on my own experiences and observations. Everyone is different with different responses and needs.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I have seen you say when you are being ironic...not noticed you say you are being passive aggressive but then believe it or not, I don't spend all my time on GN

I'm not sure if its dishonest if it avoids being directly personal on a public forum whilst providing food for thought to other posters. But then I am not entirely sure what kind of thing you are referring to. Probably depends on the motivation and the point being made. Will have to have a ponder on that one.

I will say that I agree or disagree with a point a poster has made, tagging them directly, which seems entirely reasonable. It hopefully also helps to avoid at least some misunderstandings.

My point is: At 2, we "want" our parents- That "desire" can continue into our adult lives- Even after choosing to estrange them-

That's because I generally say when I'm being ironic or passive aggressive Madgran. Not always though, sometimes it is just literally not being able to be direct because it gets deleted. That feels dishonest does it not? Sometimes I use my experience to make points... I haven't figured out if that's passive aggressive or not as yet

That is an interesting article Starblaze. I must have missed your passive aggressive comments though, I have always got the impression that you speak quite directly and honestly.

I suppose anything anyone says will be read by others in the way that it will be, misinterpreted or taken in a particular way, when not intended that way

I'm not sure what honest comments has got to do with deleting though as long as comments aren't directly personal to any individual. Sometimes though I think people take comments that are honest and about a general point as personal to them. Dunno really!

rosecarmel

I just found this today in regards to my hating making passive aggressive comments and disliking people who do it by rote.

Granted it is hard when your thead may be deleted for honest comments lol

I posted yesterday how for example a narcissists behaviour with regard to an adult victim, will be different. In an adult abusive relationship I also think that gender plays a part

Yes Smileless I agree that a narcissists behaviour towards an adult will be different than towards a child, although the principles/basis of the behaviour will be the same

However it is also true that a child's physical brain development is changed by emotional and physical abuse in childhood, resulting in impact on ways of thinking, reasoning, logic and analysis and also impacting on the brain's control of emotions, responses etc. This impact can be mitigated but it is a hard road for abused children as they become adults.

I have watched and been involved in this the process on many occasions and seen many success stories and sadly some that never really got themselves in control of their lives or to a point where the past did not continue to control their future.

I love babies. Children of all ages are great of course. The manager of our lodge's site has a little boy who was 4 on Thursday. He's been driving around the park in his white electric land rover and giving rides to the other children on the site.

A bitter sweet experience because of course it's lovely to see them all having fun but does make you think about what you've lost.

He proudly showed us his 'new skinny jeans' before we left to come home.

adult 2 year olds that must be the centre of attention in any situation I agree such behaviour is boring and tiresome but in some cases I find it disturbing too.

Change as a person, change her situation- She went from being someone who was being taken for a ride to becoming the driver/navigator of her life

It is always good to meet people who have become the driver/navigator of their own lives. I suppose we all have to get ourselves to that point as we grow up but for some it is so much harder than for others, for so many different reasons

My 2 year olds were fun too! I think my favourite age is between 6-8 years as one sees such changes in so many areas, but to be honest I just like all ages, children are so fascinating as they develop.

rosecarmel

The beautiful woman in the NARC vid (and I say beautiful because of the "work" she did) had to realize, with clarity, who she was, who he was and the dynamic of the circumstance in order to transform/change- Change as a person, change her situation- She went from being someone who was being taken for a ride to becoming the driver/navigator of her life-

She's polished- She no longer "wants" because she's "got"- And because she aspired to get it, and did, she's confident-

When it comes to parental estrangement, they're still "wanted"- At least that's the case for some- But it simply isn't possible to get when those parents haven't matured beyond the age of 2 in certain ways-

rosecarmel that does make me laugh. Yes adult 2 year olds that must be the centre of attention in any situation.

Of course actual 2 year olds actually should be the centre of attention in any situation. Mine were so much fun at that age.

When grown adults do it with all the weight they throw behind it, it's just boring and tiresome

I also agree that it is a different impact to a child experiencing abusive behaviour than to an adult experiencing abusive behaviour. Both awful, but different.

I think that's right Madgran. I posted yesterday how for example a narcissists behaviour with regard to an adult victim, will be different. In an adult abusive relationship I also think that gender plays a part. Men can often feel they'll be stigmatised if they're being abused by a female partner.

The beautiful woman in the NARC vid (and I say beautiful because of the "work" she did) had to realize, with clarity, who she was, who he was and the dynamic of the circumstance in order to transform/change- Change as a person, change her situation- She went from being someone who was being taken for a ride to becoming the driver/navigator of her life-

She's polished- She no longer "wants" because she's "got"- And because she aspired to get it, and did, she's confident-

When it comes to parental estrangement, they're still "wanted"- At least that's the case for some- But it simply isn't possible to get when those parents haven't matured beyond the age of 2 in certain ways-

That second paragraph is something I think everybody considers, no matter how they were raised, because everyone encounters difficult situations and some sort of suffering along the way "associated" with their upbringing

I think that's true that everyone considers it rosecarmel. Both towards difficulties and also towards positives ...I have always found it interesting to consider the impact of different events on a person. It is good when people can analyse that, possibly with external support, and then respond to that learning/understanding, as we see on this forum sometimes, when people talk about their experiences and their creation of a life beyond those awful experiences

The effects abuse causes on a growing child's mind, literal physical changes are not the same as coming across abusive people later in life

I agree Starblaze, the growing mind/brain is subject to physical change from childhood experiences, both emotional and physical abuse as a child impact on the brain. I also agree that it is a different impact to a child experiencing abusive behaviour than to an adult experiencing abusive behaviour. Both awful, but different.

It is apples and oranges Holyhannah

The effects abuse causes on a growing child's mind, literal physical changes are not the same as coming across abusive people later in life.

That's not a comment on pain or an argument about who is entitled to have pain or comparisons of pain caused by abusive people.

Its simply a completely different issue that some cannot grasp so make unhelpful comparisons/statements due to ignorance.

Starblaze -- You hit on a lot.

"Because they don't know they are narcissists. They think they are normal and you are the same as them. So when they are punishing you as an enemy without empathy and you are angry and hurt and defending yourself. They think you are just pretending to be hurt and angry to hurt them, because that is what they do."

That is the best 'sum-up' EVER of my 'mom'. I tend to be wordy...

"We are sooo much 'alike'..." and "Don't We always 'think' the same?" Me -- "Nope. Not really."

Narcissists absolutely do REACT to a perceived threat/enemy and as you clearly said, those that abuse their children see Us as an 'enemy'. What power does the minor child have to combat THAT?

Answer -- "Try to conform. Try to 'please'. Praise, give platitudes and forgive, forgive and forgive some more for all those times We 'pushed THEM too far' etc."

Then, that later gets used as 'evidence' about what liars We are... And the belligerent Scapegoats who scream back? They are 'evil' children...

So the kids that 'lie' and say, "Of course I love you 'mom'..." and the kids that scream the truth, "I hate You!" are both equally 'bad' because they are both telling the truth.

My abusive 'mom' didn't earn OR deserve my love and part of her knew it. So her trying to play she's a 'victim'? Yes she IS. But I am not/ever WAS her "abuser"... I was her daughter/child... I didn't have the capacity/ability to abuse Her...

Unless of course you deem "No Contact" and not allowing Our family's to meet Our children as "abuse"... This is an apple to orange "argument" of course because as a minor I didn't have the option. As an adult? I DO.

rosecarmel -- I believe this is why some see my behavior as being the Narcissist...

And after being educated on the subject, my first thought was, "OMG I am a Narcissist as well! I get frustrated to the point of not being able to function. I 'shut down'/block out AND 'blame' others for these feelings..."

And my Doctor explained, "You are failing to see the difference..."

That statement required a LOT of self-reflection... My Doc/therapist never told Me an 'answer' to anything... He always 'sent me off' to "think".

One -- No Narcissist 'worries' if they are/might be one. They never entertain the possibility... And when it's 'suggested'/ told to them by one (or more) of their AC, it's the immediate "turn around" -- "I'm not a Narc! They are."

Two -- Child abuse victims have an absolute right to those feelings. They are the biggest victims. Adults claiming they are 'victims' of other adults is obviously wrong/bad BUT comparing 'it' to an 'adult'/parent abusing a MINOR CHILD in relationship dynamic is AGAIN comparing apples to oranges...

Three -- Abuse is abuse and it's all "the same"... "Pain is pain and We are all hurting." Nope. I don't believe that one either. Child abuse victims are 100% innocent and don't deserve even 50% of blame for cutting off abusive 'parents'. Abusive parents take on ZERO % responsibility for bad relations with their AC.

As I have said many times, IF I could get my 'family' on board with taking 50% responsibility? There might be a chance at 'something'... "Blame Hannah" is still the 'family' mantra...

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- Yes. Especially those self-destructive behaviors that are counter to what people say they want...

I always say, "If you want 'insert' sometimes you have to compromise and grow in the relationship."

Compromise means all parties are fulfilled in the relationship...

7) They will “other” people who do not fit their mold. In a narcissist’s world you are either in or out. You are with them or against them. You are in the club or you are not. Narcissists categorize people based on many criteria such as gender, race, political persuasions, lifestyle practices, religion, group memberships, hobbies, appearance, and interests. They hold strong prejudicial standards and are non-apologetic if others deem them to be judgmental or unfair. Because of the belief in their superiority, they look lowly upon “those people” who seem too different or distinct.

Or in the case of 'parents' You will never reach their 'level'... That "perpetual lesser" 'thing'.

As Ironflower says, it's not until you see with clarity that all is not what we were taught to believe... Like, "The Earth is 'flat'... You're not being abused... You're the real 'problem'... THIS is all 'your fault'..." etc.

No wonder I refuse to take 'the blame' for Our family estrangement. I took all the blame for everything for as long as I can remember... Maybe it's someone else's "turn" to accept responsibility/accept THEY are to blame for the results of their behavior...

When sandwiched in a multi-generational cluster you know what, there's no limit to what you might be inclined to own- But it wouldn't be healthy to- However, you can explain the hell out of what happened and how until the cows come home, since prior generations never took the time to because they .. well, they didn't-

Madgran77

*So if someone marries an abuser/Narc they likely learned that as 'normal' from somewhere...*

Not necessarly. Narcs are very clever at the game they play and initial physical attraction can override much whilst they pull someone in. I do not think that it can be a generalised assumption.

I also dont think that one can know 100% how one would be if ones life experience had been different. One can hopefully see how ones life experience has affected one though, and hopefully learn from that

That second paragraph is something I think everybody considers, no matter how they were raised, because everyone encounters difficult situations and some sort of suffering along the way "associated" with their upbringing-

Children learn to rationalize by age 2/3? They begin to question "what if", to blame, to please in an effort to get their way and if they don't they distract themselves and internalize how they are feeling-

Children are amazing-

OK Smileless

Abuse is to misuse something. All narcissists misuse someone or something absolutely Granniesunite; well put.

everyone's welcome on all threads Starblaze or at least they should be. Narcissism is a complex issue and anyone's experience of it is IMO valid and important.