AEC thread. Feel free to chat or add helpful resources here.

New thread?

Time for a

Maybe

I think

Lol thankfully adults don't have to accept false realities, even if it doesn't happen immediately and we need help from each other or a counselor to learn to live in the real world again

Starblaze -- "There isn't a compromise or an understanding to be had or a meeting somewhere in between." -- Of course there is! We could just admit 'the truth'.

EAC are self-centered abusers who take out their misery on their spouses and children because We are emotionally immature. We are abusive toward our poor parent's because we don't understand how hard they tried. We are ungrateful brats for not praising them for all their 'sacrifices'.

I liken it to this, my 'mom' wants a relationship with Me and mine but she wants it 'her way'. I want a healthy relationship.

If you asked my 'mom' she would wail, "I've tried everything to have a good relationship with Hannah!" but the reality is, "I've tried absolutely nothing to improve my relationship with Hannah." and as a 'bonus', "And I'm all out of ideas as to what to try..."

Estrangement then, was and is the answer. Time to move on and rather than re live the negative, look for and embrace the positive.

It's good that you don't enable her, feed her "unhealthy mentality" which presumably is what you've achieved by being estranged.

Holyhannah I can't with my mum either because it is just "never happened" "didn't say that" "it's all in your head"

There isn't a compromise or an understanding to be had or a meeting somewhere in between. So it's just not resolvable.

Unless someone goes through the whole of my reasons and points out individually... Well actually... Like they did with her forcing me to empty my bank account at 15, then we are stuck. Estrangement.

Starblaze -- It would be far easier for me to accept my mom and her 'reality' if it was rooted in some/any kind of truth.

I'm not sure how an abused child is supposed to accept their parents experience... Her 'experience'/reality is that she was at least a 'good' parent if not a nominee for saint-hood.

If she clings to either of those ideas as 'truth' then she's a liar or delusional or BOTH. Why should I feed her unhealthy mentality. That's called enabling and I don't/won't do that.

Denying the parents reality wont work either. So does your experience make you think "all EP's are definitely lying" like your mum?

Holyhannah that's exactly it. What your child is telling you is the issue whether or not you agree.

Assertions that everything they are saying is a lie is not provable because that's the truth of their experience. That's how they feel. That is what you have to work with even if you don't agree.

If you are going to address how they actually feel, you have to take any anger out of it and not just respond to that.

For my part, when I sat down and wrote out "the reasons" I took every last little bit of emotion out of it. I got help to write it. I stated the facts and the impact the facts had had on me.

It was still branded all "lies" and I still get told that she doesn't know what she did wrong.

Recently I got an email that actually changed the record and money that previously "didn't exist" and was "all on your head" suddenly did exist. I am assuming because someone else had seen my "letter of lies" and said, actually, isn't there some truth to that?

So now the money existed at a lower amount... And it was returned.

It wasn't.

Does that make me think that all EPs are definitely lying like my mum?

Honestly no, brains are complex, things can get altered or exaggerated. Again though, we have two different realities and in order to come together and put together a reality that works for both, denying your child's just won't work. It may lead to estrangement which will be short or long term depending on them.

What Amy was able to do in responding to Dumbfounded was to not project her own agenda or any personal experiences she may have had.

It wouldn't be helpful to Dumbfounded and doesn't help anyone for their experience to be 'hijacked' by someone whose own experience was/is different, or for others to assume they know what she or her D thinks or feels.

Much like those "letters full of lies", followed by the "I just don't know whyyyy my child estranged Wow, the constant inability to see any other reason for estrangement other than your own. Not to mention the accusations of invalidation despite invalidating the experiences of many EP's, including it seems Dumbfounded.

"I believe his suggestion is based on my determination in trying to find ways to make my life better as opposed to getting in touch with my feelings." -- Is something I read from an EP and I went WOW.

What an honest thought/belief from an unhealthy thinker... If only that person could understand WHY what she said is so "unhealthy".

Starblaze -- Yes. Here we go again, you're correct she's not "Dumbfounded" -- "Well clearly you aren't because of all the reasons you stated your daughter didn't feel close to you growing up that you acknowledge are true.." Much like those "letters full of lies" followed by the, "I just don't know whyyyyy my child estranged."

Me -- "Take out that letter and re-read it. Then, instead of denying/minimizing all those 'lies' accept that THAT is your child(rens) reality/truth. Keep reading it until you grasp that those 'lies' are why you are being kept at a distance/ended up No Contact. If your child calls you 'toxic' or abusive or a Narc? They have a profound issue with your attitude/behavior. Either seek help from someone who isn't going to 'there there, have a cookie' You (in other words feed your "I didn't do anything 'wrong'..." mentality) or do some personal self-reflection. Just don't try to sell You don't know 'why'. You have admitted You DO know. What you do with that knowledge determines whether your child(ren) wants to make a further effort."

EP's seem to forget, by the time things have come to a head like in the article, AC has already run out of patience. That's why the confrontation/blow-up and then when the behavior stays the same, well? The AC goes NC.

The insinuation has been made that daughter still needs to do 'something' is ridiculous. She/daughter has. She explained to her 'mom', what the issues were/are and obviously stated that past behavior would no longer be tolerated. She set a reasonable boundary as in, "You know what the issues are 'mom' and you know that BS no longer is going to 'float'. Get to the shore with Me so we can have an equal adult relationship or keep rowing in the lake. I'm no longer willing to get my feet wet, let alone nearly drown, to meet You where You 'are'."

What else can daughter do, I wonder, other then to "shut up" and "get over 'it'..."?

Starblaze -- Yeah. Those, "Best Mom Ever!" type cards were so hypocritical in my mind. That's certainly not what I would say if I was 'allowed' to be honest. No wonder my 'mom' always thought I was a liar. I'd say "I love you!" but I think she knew she didn't do anything to earn those words.

As you said, 'those words' were EXPECTED because they are/were entitled to them by virtue of allowing Us to exist in their overwhelmingly awesome presence...

Holyhannah I mean "dumbfounded" though... Well clearly you aren't because of all the reasons you stated your daughter didn't feel close to you growing up that you acknowledge are true..

But she sent lovely cards!

Erm, maybe did the words come printed in the card by any chance?

Used to drive me crazy... Standing for an unreasonably long time in card shops unsure what to pick because the words weren't true and giving that card felt... I don't know, like I would be doing her some sort of disservice because wouldn't she know she isn't the person those words describe? Wouldn't she think I was making some sort of dig because she isn't those things?

In reality.... Silly Starblaze, course she knows but she wants the lovely words anyway because she thinks she is entitled to them because you exist.

Generally I tried to just go with something that said I love you and I hope you have a wonderful day because that much was true

The other stand-out line was, "She says that she doesn’t like the person that I am. This came out of left field." -- I think some more reflection on 'that' might be in order. Like, what in particular makes her dislike her 'mom' "over-all"/as a person?

In my mom's case she would say outlandish things that would just beg for someone to say, "You really believe 'that'?" because her belief was either flat-out 'wrong' or just not in tune with reality.

For example, she wasn't homophobic but, she didn't 'like' that so many TV shows had openly gay characters that were in relationships. Like it's okay to be gay, just don't have a same-sex relationship and yet no objection/comment on hetero couples. So she's kinda homophobic which doesn't work for Me.

Of course if you challenged that view, then the fire-works would begin... That's not how she means 'that' and even if you said, "Well that IS how you meant IT." and then the pathetic, "You think I'm a bad person!" and I used to comfort her because, you know, "Poooor MOM..." YOU made HER feel 'bad'.

As I've said before, now that I'm out of the FOG, maybe she SHOULD feel "bad" because she has a 'crappy attitude' which is the polite way to say, she's a disgusting Covert Narc abuser.

And no... There is little hope that relationship is gonna survive. No Contact is in 'mom's future which is sad. Daughter put everything 'out there', 'mom' knows what the issues are and is still acting like there's just "nothing she can do".

Maybe there needs to be some self reflection from the D.

On the one hand the D sends cards in which she acknowledges her mother's love, kindness and support and yet has her mother feeling that she has to walk on egg shells. As I've already said; mixed messages.

Dumbfounded gave no indication that she "sighs" and rolls her eyes. I wouldn't say the "relationship has little hope by the looks of things" but if it is to work then they both have to want it too.

It looks to me as if this what the mother wants so it's up to her D to decide if she wants it too.

Yes Holyhannah exactly what I was thinking, what a shame for both of them really.

That relationship has little hope by the looks of things

Starblaze -- I felt Amy missed the part where 'mom' might be continuing to behave in the troubling ways that daughter disliked as a minor.

IF 'mom' is continuing those behaviors 'in the now' perhaps daughter is REacting to HER. She claims she "walks on egg-shells" which can be code for -- "I don't say anything 'out loud'..." and then there's the sighs and the eye-rolls etc.

I really got the feeling 'mom' was sugar-coating with, "I know that I annoy her. I can’t figure out if she still has resentments from her childhood. She is currently distancing herself from me." -- Why no further reflection on that? If 'mom' "annoys" daughter, what is she doing that is creating that reaction?

Sorry typos, my nails are getting too long again

Holyhannah I really like what she said about not being able to make up for it, only being accountable.

What confused me was the Ops glaring contradiction. I may misremembered the exact words:

"we can't be around each other for 2 days without her picking me apart"

"she lived with me quite happily for a month"

I don't understand how both statements can be true.

Also, if she acknowledges her wrongdoing, why hahed daughter grown to dislike her more?

That's a big hole

I thought the reply was well balanced. The mother acknowledges her short comings and Amy has said she (the mother) cannot make up for past mistakes but needs to acknowledge and validate her D's experience. From what she's written IMO this is what Dumbfounded is trying to do.

As Amy pointed out, both mother and D are adults sharing a complicated history.

There appears to be some mixed messages coming from the D which will IMO only serve to make the situation more difficult to resolve.

torontosun.com/life/relationships/ask-amy-moms-mistreatment-has-lingering-effect

I found the reply interesting but I think Amy missed one key part...