Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

He makes it seem, whether he said it directly or not, that the ONLY WAY to fully/properly heal is to try to reengage (in a healthier way) with the abuser(s)/'family

Reading again, I can see how it could be read that way

Madgran -- I agree with much of what was said in the links I posted and in the less absurd comments. I highlighted a particularly troubling comment for sure and it is an illustration of the extreme. No doctor is changing that attitude -- to that EP, their child (adult or not) is a "perpetual lesser".

Doctors who deal with estrangement are walking a very difficult line. Estrangement does happen for many reasons and I should add, not all EAC come from families as deeply multi-generation dysfunctional as mine. There are 'healthier' versions (I am guessing the group the doctor was aiming at) that with the proper intervention, progress could perhaps be made.

I want to be clear that it is the EXTREMES that EAC like me object to. The doctor seems to think most fall into the "not THAT dysfunctional" group and he may be correct on that. I have no articles or stats to refute his position or to say how many estranged family relationships are at the extreme end of the scale like mine. However, for the extreme end? No one is going to break down that wall.

Makes sense Holy Hannah

Common theme -- What EP's 'believe' that EAC cite as "abuse"...

EP -- "One of the points that I got from the Brainwashing article was what I had suspected all along. Sending them to their room as punishment was “abuse”. Taking their phone away was “abuse”. Not buying the snacks they wanted was “abuse”. Basically, not catering to their whims or disciplining them in any manner was “abuse”. They’re all on these sites convincing each other of this. Any move we made was “,abuse” unless we lay there like a yes-man door mat and paid for it all while they ran all over us."

And I would love to see what they are quoting to back that up. I can cite many examples of dysfunctional beliefs and that sort of thinking is another one. It's like thinking, "If I SAY that is what they call abuse, then therefore those are not 'bad' things that are truly abusive and since I was not TRULY abusive then those must be the reasons I'm estranged."

"Sending them to their room as punishment was “abuse”. Taking their phone away was “abuse”. Not buying the snacks they wanted was “abuse”. Basically, not catering to their whims or disciplining them in any manner was “abuse”

They took things away from a kid who already didn't have what they needed to begin with-

rosecarmel -- Crap... I was reading that more gently then You. And boy do I understand your point... Yeah... It goes to the theme of, "I just didn't smack them enough as a child."

To be clear, I was speaking personally- Plenty wasn't provided- I spoke up- As a result wound up with even less- Punishing children for the results of what wasn't there to begin with, healthy parenting, is a common pattern- Shitty imprinting

In their defense, they didn't notice- They weren't taught to, which prevented them from fully considering what they could have done- Or didn't do- It's a direct path to 2 conclusions: we didn't do anything wrong or we don't know what we did wrong-

It's quite a party when the the rest of the immediate family rides with them on their better than you band wagon-

I cannot really see the purpose of this thread. Although I did respond initially, on revisiting the clip, it is clear the woman is not representative of most people. She has extreme and biased views and is not rational, quite frankly some of the responses have been equally biased. To try to understand the mindset of any extremist nature is difficult. I would think 99% of estrangement is not from people such as her, but of family differences and dynamics and personality clashes.

If you look at Harry and Megan, that's estrangement on a big scale playing out in front of the media.

Everything is abuse when abusive people are doing it! I was sent to my room almost every day and reasons were looked for to do it, I just wasn't wanted around. I accidentally broke a glass and my apology didn't sound genuine enough,, sent to room! For the rest of the day x

Sparkling, what makes their estrangement big scale?

Sparkling -- That is a common theme. Some think that attitudes like her are rare. You believe that she is a 1%. What about the over 1000 'followers' she has that cheer on her dysfunctional mentality? Her attitude is not uncommon at.

As for the Royal Family, it doesn't get more dysfunctional then that lot.

People not accepting just how many abusive parents there really are out there just make it harder for victims to get help x

I finished watching Unbelievable last night- It's amazing how many people in this world don't believe each other, in more ways than one, not even the people responsible for others well-being- It was difficult to watch but came away from it feeling renewed-

That's really Interesting rosecarmel, where did you watch it?

It's a Netflix mini series based on a true story- The subject matter is sexual (trigger warning) and intertwined with disbelief of a crime that actually took place- I mentioned this story because it reveals just how easily people come to disbelieve and draw incorrect conclusions even though the evidence is staring them in the face- Its much like the way estrangement unfolds, the patterns, all of it-

If interested, there's a podcast about it on This American Life called Anatomy of Doubt
www.thisamericanlife.org/581/anatomy-of-doubt

And doubt is a part of the anatomy of estrangement ..

rosecarmel I've actually already seen that series, it was terribly sad and difficult and very true when situations like that hit the news x

Interesting that the Royal Family came up here. OTOH, I think it is commendable that Harry and Meghan want to earn their own living and don't know why the family is fussing. Also, I imagine that it must be frustrating to have all those "duties" to perform, and all those rules to follow, but no real political power. (Not that I want them to have power, mind you, just that I can see where it might be a frustrating situation.)

But OTOH, I don't see why they couldn't wait to make their announcement as the family wanted them to. After all, the family has come a long way on their marriage rules, especially the Queen. There was a time she wouldn't have let a Royal marry so much as a commoner. And now, she gave permission for Harry to not only wed a commoner, but an American actress, and one who is biracial. Plus, she accepted their having a minister of Meghan's choosing and religious persuasion speak at their wedding. Nothing wrong w/ any of that, IMO, but given the Queen's history and upbringing, I think it took a lot for her to accept all that. IOWs, she was very magnanimous to them, IMO and in ways she wouldn't have been in the past. One would think they would honor her and Charles request for discretion just out of appreciation for that. But I guess they don't see it that way.

I still admire their seeking financial independence and to carve out their own path for their family unit. And, no doubt, many young couples run into resistance from extended families when they start to don things a little differently. This, too, often leads to estrangement, I think. I just hope it's not irreparable in this case ( as I would hope in any case).

I think it's more Megan's estrangment from her family that was being mentioned x

Oh, maybe.

I don't see why .. they don't see it that way ..

Starlady, "not seeing" is a subject that often comes up in estrangement conversations-

Despite whatever criticisms the Queen would face for doing so, she cut through appearance, ego, tradition and led by example when she chose to be flexible-

Yet when the young couple followed her example it wasn't acceptable- They had two choices to make, they'd be cut to smithereens either way: lie down on the criticism chopping block while doing what's expected of them or doing what is best for them-

The Queen bent the rules, they did too- But for some strange reason I can't imagine the Queen exclaiming, "I didn't do anything wrong!"

rosecarmel -- I agree that "not seeing"/understanding the 'other side' is a factor in many estrangement situations. The inability to "see" leads to, "They are 'wrong'." without consideration for the other perspective. If you don't understand/'get' the "other side" it stands to reason it should be difficult to conclude if they/anyone is 'right' or 'wrong'.

Starlady said, "One would think they would honor her and Charles request for discretion just out of appreciation for that. But I guess they don't see it that way."

I can understand why they, "don't see it that way." The problem is, IF they had 'honored' that request, then it would have lead to further requests for concessions by them, until they'd be right back where they started -- Just shutting up and doing as told.

In this particular situation both parties could envision a new future- One party suggested to move towards it methodically and rip the band-aid slowly while the other cut to the chase and ripped it off quickly in one fell swoop- But the decision to move forward toward a new future was collective-

Either way was healthy, to open themselves up, to be vulnerable and reveal their royal wounds- It's a beautiful gesture, an invitation from both to each other as well as to the world in an effort to get to know one another opposed to remaining closed- Both knew they'd be faced with criticism but cared enough to go ahead and engage in conversation publically and privately-

IMO, you ladies are making a lot of good points about the royals!

"In this particular situation both parties could envision a new future- One party suggested to move towards it methodically and rip the band-aid slowly while the other cut to the chase and ripped it off quickly in one fell swoop- But the decision to move forward toward a new future was collective-"

I agree, rose. In fact, it seems to me that much of the current fuss is over timing only. As in many family conflicts a seemingly small issue that, clearly, is "big" to some members. I just hope it is all resolved quickly and doesn't lead to a total CO.

I can imagine the Queen a GMIL position... "well Megan cut off her own family so it was only a matter of time before she cut off Harry's" lol

Only imagine though