Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

"Common Theme" -- Misinterpreting and rewriting word meanings to fit a personal narrative.

The thing is, NO ONE believes me when I say I came from a dysfunctional family. My 'family' thinks they are "normal" and I'm the one with the problem/I AM 'the problem'.

SO pardon me if, like you, I don't believe many of you who claim, "I was a good parent." (another "common theme")

I understand that there is always someone who "had it worse" and that was a "common theme" excuse as to why I couldn't object to my maltreatment. "Someone has it 'worse' then You! You should be grateful!" The only thing I am 'grateful' for is that I had enough inner strength to not let these people break me/I didn't kill myself.

It is not scapegoating my family to blame them for my many of my 'issues'. They created them. Abuse damages developing brains.

The question was asked, "Why can one child in the 'family' see it so differently?" and I answered on the theme of this topic/thread.

I've watched quite a few of his videos today while I reframed pictures (we had an accident and knocked a few down moving furniture) and I know I'm not the brightest spark ever but I really understood a lot of what he was saying. He also said that you can move away from narcissistic tendencies and be a force for good I think it was. I've found it all really interesting and helpful x

Dr Carter points out that all people have narcissistic tendencies- His offering of that view invites the opportunity to understand and examine how people can relate to each other instead of defending themselves, their views, their sense of being separately or collectively correct-

HolyHannah : your post to me on Wednesday 19th in regard of the family Scapegoat and how my daughter was probably the Family Scapegoat is so far from the truth that you are sounding to me that you are slightly unhinged.
My daughter also was not raised in a dysfunctional home quite to the contrary and she would bring friends home from school who were suffering family problems/parents that were divorcing and all sorts and want them to be able to live with us so they did not cry about how unhappy they were.
So if my child was unloved neglected or even a scapegoat
she would have had no confidence to do that sort of thing.

Also HolyHannah just take a look at the post from Smiless2012 today at 9.17 as she has got it correctly about scapegoating. All her post resonates with me completely but the lines that read :Anyone can be scapegoated including parents whose AC, rather than taking responsibility for their own mistakes and the way their lives have turned out, blame their parents and the way they were raised. My own case indeed if anyone has been scapegoated then it is me.
I too notice all the little children when I am out and about and this reminds me of my grand-children. I have one little family I see on my daily dog walk. I first started seeing the grand-father pushing the pram and he always smiled the child was about 6 months then, that was over a year ago and always I would see them and over the last three weeks the lady who must be the childs mother has also been out and the child is now about 18 months or maybe a bit more and he is walking and the grand-father is still out and waves to me and says hello and calls out doggy. They are possibly Chinese origin so I do not get into too much conversation only a hello but I watch them bringing up that baby and see the joy and happiness in their faces I forget my sadness for awhile and they do not know how much they lift my day and what a special gift they have in their growing child.

Thank you for the surviving narcissism videos HolyHannah and rosecarmel. I think I am going to go back to counselling and work on my own unhealthy behaviours instead of focusing on the unhealthy behaviour done to me. I need to leave both behind me x

Thanks Starblaze. I feel really good and strong though xx

Smileless

Thank you Chewbacca for your kind words. I can see why people vulnerable, would rather lurk than post sometimes.

No, I don't mind at all Yogagirl. As you say our stories are very similar and after more than 7 years we know one another and our history very well xx

A very good post Smileless, thank you.

The term scapegoating is also used when the blame and/or responsibility for what's wrong in someone's life is placed on the shoulders of another.

At the time of Moses, who ever was the high priest would confess the sins of the people onto the goat while laying his hands on the goats head before sending it out into the wilderness, part of the Jewish festival of atonement.

This became an annual event which lasted for centuries where the sins of the people were symbolically placed on the goat therefore relieving them of their sin. This where the term scapegoat originated from.

Any one can be scapegoated including parents whose AC, rather than taking responsibility for their own mistakes and the way their lives have turned out, blame their parents and the way they way were raised.

With time I've found that the wounds begin too and some of them do heal Yogagirl. The scars remain and as you said about bereavement, you "learn to live with it".

Little boys; when I see little boys I think of our GS's and wonder if that's what they sound like when they talk and laugh.

it doesn't bring closure or peace, just keeps picking a scab off a wound.

Sparkling, I couldn't agree more.

To not know what crime she's committed, what heinous act she unwittingly carried out, and to have no way to try to rectify it, is breaking her. I thought of those of you who are in a very similar situation. I've witnessed it from the "other side", up close and personal today and I'm very sorry for you all that are suffering - Thank you Chewbacca This is true for both myself & Smileless Hope you don't mind my keep mentioning you S but our stories are so similar xx

3nanny6 Tue 18-Feb-20 15:16:12 -

You never get over it, even though myself & Smileless say we have moved on after 7.5yrs, I think I can say for both of us, you really don't. You get used to the bereavement & learn to live with it after all those years gone by. I was shopping on Sunday after my work & saw a girl about my GD age and I thought ' that could be my Laila' kept looking at her and wondered if I should call her name. Then I think her dad came along, showing it couldn't be her

doesn't help really ( typo)

What an interesting discussion, something I am going through right now and fresh in my mind after my session with a counsellor yesterday. There is a shed load of stuff on line about Narcissim , some of it helpful. I don't think pouring over it for hours and trying to make sense of what has gone help really.

My parents ( born in the 1920's) might as well have been from Mars or Saturn, compared to todays world.

Hard as it is, we have to dig deep and move on and live our lives.

HH, I very much do understand the concept of not being loved or wanted as a child, so please do not judge me. You either move on or become a victim, for that's what you become, a victim or a survivor. Many, many people in this world suffer unimaginable horrors, the children in the Syrian camps for example. There are so many ways to suffer in this world. Like my friends child, now 40, good brain, never walked, travelled or had a relationship, but loves her religion, chatting on social media and trying to paint, I don't think I have ever heard her moan, because she knows it's not anyone else's fault, it just as it is.

Sparkling -- "Because we all love our children it's inconceivable until it happens, that it's not reciprocated."

Thank you for high-lighting another "common theme"/misconception about AC that estrange... WE didn't "reciprocate" your 'love'?

Abused children try and try and TRY to give love to our abusers HOPING that if we can love them "enough" they will 'at least' stop abusing US. We abused children set the bar of 'love' so low an ant could trip over it...

Feeling rejected by your child(ren) after you shared such a 'close relationship' must hurt a lot... Now try to imagine what happens when a child abuse victim realizes they never had ANY "closeness" to anyone in their 'family'/life EVER.

Why all this talk of Narcistists. Constantly looking at videos on it and reading books, it doesn't seem to work, it doesn't bring closure or peace, just keeps picking a scab off a wound.

Here's another:

What If A Narcissist Says, "I Want To Change." Can You Believe It?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=wnp5VDSGJVE

"There might be a time when a narcissist admits a need for change, but you are skeptical. Can you trust such a comment? Psychotherapist Dr. Les Carter discusses how you can tell if that person's declaration is reliable or not.

He uses consistency to measure effort-

Chew baca, how very sad for your neighbour, it's hard say anything that could help her at the moment, just be there.
3Nanny6, I don't think reading some of these posts from those that estrange and rant on, I can imagine how low you must feel, but you need uplifting and there are many on the different esteangement threads, who are in your very same position. It's finding a way to cope with the rejection as it shakes the confidence, to realise it's not you and live round that pain. Knowing that you are not alone, far from it.Because we all love our children it's inconceivable until it happens, that it's not reciprocated.?

Inconceivable!

Trust me... Scapegoat children aren't 'allowed' to be "one of the flock". That's why We often get called "black sheep". It's our 'place' in the 'family' to be the outlet. Everyone's unhappiness is the Scapegoats fault. When we act like them? WE got punished more and usually/often/always disproportionately to what 'betters' were doing/did.

As a "bonus"? The Scapegoat learns/is conditioned to blame themselves! Why not? Everyone else does.

The Goat gets to take 100 shots before giving ONE back and then? "SEE??? You are just like US! YOU are the Narcissist/abuser!"

DARVO yet again...

HolyHannah, I listened to Dr. Les Carter- Something about him reminds me of Wallace Shawn, the character he played in Princess Bride, Vizzini-

While scrolling through his videos I came across this one:

The Hidden Narcissism Inside Normal People

m.youtube.com/watch?v=oVLPkh3u7Wo

"Narcissism is a multi-layered trait on a spectrum. Some people are so overtaken by it that it's their major identifier. Psychotherapist Dr. Les Carter explains, though, that it's possible for normal individuals to show signs of it at a lesser level. When you know how to honestly assess your own potential for narcissistic traits, that's when you can nip it in the bud and keep it from growing."

Estrangement also offers freedom, an opportunity to move on, separate from a difficult parent- Separate from a difficult adult- Be it a daughter or a son, a sister or brother- A family-

Oddly enough, or not, it's not uncommon for the estranged parent to have healthy relationships with others- Others children, and families- Friends and people in their communities -

The estranged and the estranger can both pursue fulfilling lives with less suffering- The distance can prove beneficial to both-

Estrangement can leave one feeling dead- But it isn't a dead end- It can be a mutual, new beginning for all involved-

“You cannot keep birds from flying over your head, but you can keep them from building a nest in your hair.”
-- Martin Luther

3nanny6 -- "The fact my daughter estranged herself from me is the only time within the family that something like that has been done. Why haven't my other children estranged from me?"

That is a common theme I hear. The answer could be that your daughter is the family Scapegoat. Often, the Scapegoat is the only one that recognizes the overall dysfunction and distances themselves because 'everyone else' sees them as the sole problem.

There is a difference in how Golden Children and Scapegoats are treated in the same home. Golden's tend to mirror the abusive parent and therefore see the Scapegoat with the same distorted lens the parent(s) do. Since the Golden(s) don't understand the parent(s) are actually dealing out abuse, they see the Scapegoat as being 'deserving' of the treatment they get. The parent(s) treat the Scapegoat as a 'lesser' the Golden(s) follow and since the 'parent' fails to intervene the Golden feels validated in their treatment of the 'lesser'.

This is why children from the same home, who were raised in a dysfunctional family, can have vastly different feelings/perspectives of their upbringings. Some say abusive/dysfunctional families are much like cults. If you walk away, you automatically become 'the problem' and the dysfunction remains unexposed and unaddressed.

This is also why Scapegoats are rarely believed and supported, after all, "Everyone else in the 'family' seems to be able to 'get along' but YOU. You MUST be the 'problem'." is a common theme.

It's also why, if the Scapegoat seeks treatment and finds a competent/qualified therapist, quite often the therapist does not recommend joint counselling etc. because the dysfunction and denial is viewed as too deep to crack. Which also leads to the "common theme" of -- "But the therapist hasn't heard OUR 'side' of the 'story'." For some reason, qualified professionals don't need to hear the gas-lighting first hand.