Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

Maybe, interesting metaphor for us!

Yennifer -- I wonder if that is another common theme. I always marveled at butterflies. Even on the windiest day they always still seemed so at peace.

I'm absolutely obsessed with butterflies x

Yennifer -- There are numerous types of visualization therapies out there. That is one example.

Ah, I like that!

Yennifer -- I consider my FOO to be caterpillars on a plant. I got tired of the plant, grew a chrysalis, emerged as a butterfly and flew away on calm winds...

Makes me so totally miserable when people think trying for nearly 40 uearss wasn't enough. Like it's not enough that I was abused for all that time? I've got to be the bigger person when I've been made the smallest? x

Madgran -- You quoted "The benefits that accrue to hashing them out are that the abused individual no longer has family members, even with minimal contact, continuing to trigger and reinforcing their self-destructive behavior. And they're less likely to pass dysfunctional patterns on to any kids that they have."

What the Doctor seems to over-look, again what some abused/EAC were trying to convey, is that one can get healthy and learn to avoid triggers WITHOUT having to involve, in any way, the people that abused them.

He makes it seem, whether he said it directly or not, that the ONLY WAY to fully/properly heal is to try to reengage (in a healthier way) with the abuser(s)/'family'.

I am certain that for the party feeling abandoned, this is a good thought and will agree whole-heartedly with any professional that encourages those that estrange to "keep trying".

This is a common theme that pretty much every EAC understands. We walked away/went NC and the universal messages we get are all the same and one of them is, "You need to trying." The REALITY is, the "keeping on trying" was what was making us the most ill! It's a subtle and under-talked about form of enabling.

By continuing to try to change an entirely dysfunctional 'family' environment, you are actually adding to the dysfunction. "Oh there's Hannah making something out of nothing again..." insert '*eye-roll*' for bonus points. "There's nothing 'wrong' with US! Three out of four in this 'home' KNOW you are the 'real problem'."

So, the weakest member of the 'family', that everyone views as fundamentally flawed on every level, is going to be able to magically make them "see the light" and iron out the wrinkles in the 'family' with the assistance of a professional? No, they will 'hear' the doctor say that there is something wrong in the 'family' BEYOND Hannah and then declare, "What an idiot. Buying into Hannah's 'version'... Forget what the pro said, he is stupid, just like her."

Ah thanks, I get it now

Madgran, HolyHanna said it several posts back, and it made me laugh out loud because of the truth to it- I was the perpetual lesser in my family-

What do you mean by "A perpetual Lesser" rosecarmel? I don't understand the phrase

A perpetual lesser ..

Holy Hannah I agree with the points you make re choice being with the person who has chosen to estrange.

I didn't read his well argued points as implying "some kind of wrong". He is talking about methods for addressing what someone who has been abused is left with, from his professional perspective and experience. The methods may VERY UNDERSTANDABLY be something that is just not possible for the person who has been abused.

Others may find that despite the pain, long term it may bring greater benefits for them, as he says.

The benefits that accrue to hashing them out are that the abused individual no longer has family members, even with minimal contact, continuing to trigger and reinforcing their self-destructive behavior. And they're less likely to pass dysfunctional patterns on to any kids that they have

Anyway it is very interesting to read and thanks for posting it

Madgran -- It's not that the Doctor said that in so many words, but it was/is certainly implied. And yes, IF an abused child decides that they want No Contact with their ABUSER then it should be 100% respected. No, ifs and or buts. Full stop. It should not be inferred or implied that to not try to heal the relationship is any kind of 'wrong'. That is what some EAC were objecting to.

The question and decision to reestablish contact with their abuser is 100% up to the victim. Is the doctor correct that there COULD be benefits? Yes. Is that always the case? No. He makes it sound like there is ALWAYS a benefit which is simply untrue.

I have been reading through the comments. There are some very disturbing comments. I find it interesting that some commenters are "arguing" with the original writer of the article telling him he has said things that he hasn't eg. from an EAC Your attitude is “well, they abused you, but they stopped it and they have changed, so now you can have a relationship.”...the original writer didn't say this and explains that several times but the explanations are ignored/misinterpreted again. Maybe the commenter is unable to see beyond their own pain/experience to what is actually being said; very sad

There is so much hurt and pain coming though from so many people. The original article is clearly expressed and puts over some good points doesn't it.

Ah right...thanks!

Madgran -- It is directly next to the social media icons below the main title of the article.

Madgran -- To view the comments there is a 'chat box' with the number of comments. There are several pages of comments so you have to repeat the process to see all the pages. At least that is how it works how I am viewing the site. I hope this helps.

…I can't seem to find comments on the article! Sorry ...I must be looking in the wrong place??

Ok thanks. I read the article, not the comments. Will go back and look again

Madgran -- It was in the comments section in the first article I quoted earlier. If you read through the comments there are many similar and equally disturbing recurring themes like that.

Holy Hannah That comment you quoted is just silly, deeply nasty and arrogant isn't it! Where did it come from?

I wonder why this 'parent' is estranged -- "Well, I’m here to remind you that if daughter’s like yourself would learn their proper place and understand that parents and their children are not on equal footing, there would be no necessity for your rude crassness ... just the mere fact that your mother labored and reared you in this cruel and harsh world is reason enough ! And the years of experience are a treasure trove for our children to learn and draw from, if they’d only shut up long enough to learn something ..."

The idea that 'parents' and ADULT children are not equals is another common theme. Who wants to be in a relationship as a perpetual "lesser"?

Denial isn't lying- It's an inability to see but an inability that can be remedied with effort over the course of a lifetime-

When sitting in the deep woods during the new moon it's impossible to see your hand in front of your face- But understand that when born into darkness, darkness is all there is, and you don't even know you have a hand because you never saw it-

Imagine describing light to a nocturnal creature- A creature that doesn't even understand that they are in the dark because they've nothing else to compare it to-

A person has to make an effort to see- And see themselves in other people in order to recognize why estrangements take place- A parent can easily believe they've done nothing wrong when they cannot identify themselves in their children as well as the partners their children chose-

Recognising the bad behaviour you have picked up is definitely the hardest thing but I think I had already done a lot of that before becoming an EC. I still have regrets and I'm still working hard because my children have an anxious and depressed mum and that must cause issues. I can't imagine going from a great relationship with a parent/child to nothing and thinking I was better off. I struggle thinking I'm better off sometimes without a rubbish one x