Estrangement or alienation?

I’m quite upset and feel very let down .

Gangster, you do then know why your granddaughter is behaving as she is. Listen carefully to what she has expressed; at least she HAS expressed it. On the basis of that I would suggest nothing more than an occasional "Just checking in to say hi" type text, no more. If she is round with family say hello and then let her be; your husband too! She is 17 and is not appreciating the adoration and questions about her welfare. If she doesnt want to communicate at the moment so be it.

OutsideDave -- Exactly. I once heard an EP say something like, "Well yes, there were signs, but who would think that would lead to estrangement?"

I suggest the answer to that is someone who doesn't care about the obvious increased signs/annoyance of the person doing the distancing.

This is where EAC/EGC run into problems... Backing away slowly = being rude. Trying to set boundaries = immature. Not responding fast enough = disrespect. Not responding at all = immature, disrespectful and abusive. Actually saying, "Stop being so invasive." leads to "How I am/we being invasive? What did we do? What do you want from Us? We're trying so hard!" which = EXHAUSTING.

And for those who have, "been there and done that" by actually spelling out, "Here's why I don't want to be around You/the 'family' etc..." as soon as you/if you finish? Then expect the gas-lighting to begin.

"But. But... BUT... We always had your best interests at heart. We loved you! We did our best! Can't you remember the 'good times'? Holding on to 'this' just hurts everyone. Can't you just forgive/forget?" Which = emotionally exhausting and a waste of time.

This is why children and grand-children go No Contact. And for those that are about to say, "I went No Contact with my child(ren)/grands because they were abusing Me." I say, "Give Me an honest and real time-line on that. I bet they walked away from You first. Your 'story' is the typical saving face of, 'They didn't leave ME. I left them.' and most of Us have heard that before." and I know all the variations like, 'When I cut off the money.' or 'When I stopped babysitting' or 'When I stopped doing...'

So, she’s telling you exactly why she’s distancing herself and....you persist on continuing to push and complain and call her rude??? Seriously? Give her space. She’s a 17 year old who doesn’t want to talk to her granny weekly, even if her granny wasn’t bossy and unpleasant and prying.

I'm sure Mollymalone and Madgran are right Gingster and it's a phase she's going through.

It's not easy being 17 with the pressure A levels. I understand you feeling upset and let down though.

Maybe call her once a fortnight and keep the conversation light and chatty about what you and your DH have been up too, rather than asking her about what she's been doing.

Try not to worry. Are you seeing them over the Christmas holiday? If so, just try to enjoy it.

Thanks for your advice which is helpful. She has told her mum that she finds my dh , her grandad, annoying and is always asking her if she wants, needs anything. Asking if everything is ok? Etc. He absolutely adores her and would do anything for her, as would I. She says I am bossy and argumentative with grandad. Just a normal family really. I’m quite upset and feel very let down .

….also I'm not sure that what you describe with your granddaughter is alienation as such, if caused by teenage growing up/angst etc. . I hope not as that would be so painful for you

Gingster She is 17; studying hard; a teenager! Yes it is rude but I would leave and not make too big a deal at the moment. Carry on being yourself; text occasionally.."Just checking in to say Hi. Hope you are ok" type messages maybe. Maybe if a chance arises, or when exams are over take a chance to ask if there is anything bothering her, but gently rather than accusingly. Say you have noticed she seems distant; ask if you have done something to upset her or is something worrying her?

Have you asked her parents about it by the way?

Unless something specific has happened to cause this, then it probably is teenage stress and angst.

I'd suggest not referring to it as "rude" - at least just for the moment. You just said she's busy studying etc. But she's also a teen with all the pressures that brings. Take a step back for now, but a big step forward when she approaches you. Unless there are other "family" problems I'm sure it's just "a stage" xx

My 17 yr old grandaughter makes excuses not to see us. We have always been very close to her and been very involved with her life, taking her on holidays, lovely outings, always supported her when life was difficult at Home. Taken her to university open days . She now never answers text messages, won’t answer the phone and us very quiet when with the family. I know she is about to take a levels and is studying hard but it’s so rude to alienate us and ignore us. I don’t call her often, maybe once a week, so it’s not as if I’m harrassing her. How should I tackle this.

okay, that's fine ❤️

I didn't say that you had. While I agree we can all "use words in whatever ways express things better for us" I also think we should do so with sensitivity.

Our experience of estrangement is different so something I might say from the perspective of an EP/GP for example, may make an EAC feel uncomfortable if they think my post is 'tarring all EAC with the same brush' so to speak.

I don't get what I've said thats insensitive? ☹️

Yes of course we can FlyingFree and do so with a degree of sensitivity for one another.

You're right Mollymalone I'm sure than any relationship we have been able to build with our GC would have been "spoiled anyway", so never having had the chance is something to the thankful for.

We will only ever miss what we'd hoped for, and not what we had that was taken away.

That's okay @Smileless2012! I'm very comfortable with my decision and we can both use words in whatever ways express things better for us x

Damn! Lost my post - here we go again.

FlyingFree and Smileless there are so many different situations. (FF) you did absolutely the right thing in protecting your children - and yourself. I have deep respect for that. (SL), unfortunately you didn't get a chance to bond with your GC but that may have been spoiled anyway! . to both of you xx.

I don't doubt that FlyingFree but your reasons for estranging aren't the same for everyone.

I haven't alienated my children! I have estranged them from a nasty abusive mess x

Yes that 's a very good point Mollymalone. I think our GC are still too young for that to be happening and try not to imagine what may be said to them in the future, if the children ever want an explanation for our absence.

It seems at the moment that the subject gets changed. That has happened when our DS has been with them but of course may not be the case when he isn't, and questions are asked.

And sometimes it's parents who "alienate" children from their GP's or other family members by implanting false and downright horrible accusations or lies. And often the accusations and lies are projection.

The problem is it isn't just the third party in a relationship that does the alienating. They can and do influence their partner for example, into alienating too.

For some their alienation of their parents' in law isn't enough, they want their husband/wife to alienate their parents too. They want their parents' in law to be alienated from their GC.

I don't know very much at all about parental alienation but having experienced estrangement, I do know that it isn't always about someone finally seeing the truth. If it were the truth that was being seen, some estrangements wouldn't happen.

Flying Free Yes....I do think that an acceptance that a third party can actually create the problem in a previously close relationship is positive, in the overall debate/discussion/research/support on estrangement/alienation in any relationship. It can only extend the opportunities available to people who are in pain, to get appropriate support and understanding of their situation, their own or others part in that situation and ways to move forward.

It has struck me as well that the same situation might apply when ACs find themselves alienated from a parent who has a new partner.

I think it's much better! If there is a big difference between being alienated by a third party in a relationship and one person finally seeing the truth and estranging! It makes much more sense x

Perhaps then we haven't been estranged for the last 7 years, we have been alienated.

That said the result is the same, the loss of a dear son and our only GC so I suppose it doesn't really matter what we call it, it doesn't change the outcome.

A spouse/SO can cause alienation in general but it would not be 'Parental Alienation' by definition.

Ofcourse you are right Holy Hannah The bit of the article I referred to just said alienation in the text and that is what made me think about the possible wider perspective of alienation. As you say, a spouse/SO can cause alienation.

Parental alienation describes a process through which a child becomes estranged from a parent as the result of the psychological manipulation of another parent. The child's estrangement may manifest itself as fear, disrespect or hostility toward the parent, and may extend to additional relatives or parties.

A spouse/SO can cause alienation in general but it would not be 'Parental Alienation' by definition.