What else can I do for my daughter to want me in her life

I agree Madgran it's a painful time for elena and her D "but most of all it is the pain of the children which is the key issue".

HH

You nailed it

"EAC would love for their parents to change but -- what we really REALLY want is recognition that there is a problem! Change isn't going to happen until the unhappy party in the relationship (the NC parent/grand-parent) recognizes that their behavior dictates the REaction of others'."

So if someone is flipping between, "My grand-daughter was abused to the point of need counselling and removal from her abusive 'mom'." to the grandchild was "never abused" I wouldn't allow this person around minor children of mine either.

Neither would I which I think was clear from my previous post, if that was the case.

Re "the old question", I missed that part of your post or at least forgot it. I think if the daughter was asked that question, her answer, within the context of her perpective, would be very robust! In this case I don't think reconciliation of any sort is the key issue, I think the needs of the children are the key issue.

As I said previously this is a painful time for the OP and for her daughter. But most of all it is the pain of the children which is the key issue

I hope the OP has found food for thought on this thread.

Madgran -- Smileless suggested that elena's daughter should answer "the old question" as if somehow daughter was doing something 'wrong' by not wanting to work toward reconciliation. Or turning it back to the 'two-sides' argument. You should know full well that when dealing with dysfunctional thinkers/abusers there are no 'two sides'.

Many Estranged Parents cry that they want to see their grands but won't 'walk on eggshells' or 'debase themselves' or whatever they need to do to get to their self-reported goal of family reconciliation -- including court action. Which is actually just a bullying tactic and again is not in any way addressing any family issues that may be present.

Some EP's believe that their children want them to 'change' and that they are not going to do 'that' because whatever adjustments that their AC request is unreasonable.

EAC would love for their parents to change but -- what we really REALLY want is recognition that there is a problem! Change isn't going to happen until the unhappy party in the relationship (the NC parent/grand-parent) recognizes that their behavior dictates the REaction of others'.

So if someone is flipping between, "My grand-daughter was abused to the point of need counselling and removal from her abusive 'mom'." to the grandchild was "never abused" I wouldn't allow this person around minor children of mine either.

I dont really see any one blaming the daughter, more pondering on all the nuances of an awful situation.

Madgran ...I'm wondering if tidyskatemum post was in reply to Panda220 the original post to this thread, and not Elena's?
You could be right namsnanny . I got confused as to who the OP was, sorry!

Smileless ...14.27, 30th March

elana

Smileless … Excellent post, thoughtful, compassionate and truthful.

Madgran ...I'm wondering if tidyskatemum post was in reply to Panda220 the original post to this thread, and not Elena's?

I have not blamed the D for not wanting her children to see her step father HolyHannah.

In my initial response I suggested that elena consider that her D may well have felt that her son's allegations of his cousins behaviour had not been given due consideration, and that may well have something to do with subsequent allegations.

I still feel this is something worthy of consideration.

Madgran -- You nailed it.

Nodding along to what Madgran said on this one. Quite well put.

tidyskatemum I do not think replies in this thread are about an estranged parent saying they dont know what they have done and being in Carch 22 from any EAC! The replies are pointing out considerations that the OP may well need to take into account!!

In this case the OP is asking for advice because her daughter is clearly and quite rightly from her perspective, protecting her children.

The OP believes her daughter is wrong but her daughter has to protect her children. This is a difficult and painful time for the OP . It is also a very difficult and painful time for her daughter and perhaps most of all for her grandson and granddaughter who, it seems likely from information given, have both suffered abuse. Not that we can know that for certain ofcourse but the mother is NOT "behaving badly" with the decision she is taking, based on her perpective.

Equally the OP believes her husband is not an abuser. We cannot know either way. But her daughter believes he is and is protecting her children. I cannot criticise her for that.

I have posted in thread supporting the OP, validating them on their feelings and abusive actions of their AC.
Now a person who first says her gd was abused and then denies it - a totally different story

There are the posters on here (we all know who you are!) who will never accept that EC could possibly be at fault and all the problems are down to parents who, no matter how much they may debase themselves in the attempt to reestablish relationships, will always be firmly in the wrong and cannot be forgiven. I’m sure there are people who have been treated badly by their parents and can justify their own estrangement but others behave badly and justify their bad behaviour by blaming their parents - and when the parents say they don’t know what they have done it is seized upon as proof of their parental inadequacy. Talk about Catch-22!
Some of you should actually read and digest the EP’s posts instead of tarring everyone with the same brush and inflicting your bitterness on them.

I shall now put on my hard hat and retreat to my bunker........

Smileless -- You are correct. It does take "both sides". But when one side is in denial and the other side goes No Contact because they cannot break through the overall family dysfunction/denial that there is more to the family problems then just them -- nothing will change.

People go and remain No Contact because they can see the issue that the other side refuses to accept/deal with appropriately. So blame the daughter but there is more going on that is not being addressed and until it is, elena is not going to be happy/get what she wants, which is renewed contact with her grandchild.

Healing a relationship means talking honestly about it

elana is not doing that.

That's a question estranged children ask themselves every day, until estrangement. They have to be "wrong" to have a relationship. On everything generally. At the point of estrangement, they start asking themselves if they want to continue after years of being the only bending over backwards and being the "wrong" one to keep the relationship going.

In the case of someone who suspects sexual abuse has occurred, I expect right or wrong with sexual abuse being incredibly hard to prove doesn't matter. The risk matters. I would not take such a risk.

I am a child who was sexually abused whose own mother did not believe me and did nothing to protect me. This mother will not even take that risk. Great mum.

Because it takes 2 people or both sides to want to heal a relationship HolyHannah and the person or party who doesn't want to 'fix' the relationship should make sure they've asked themselves and answered the "old question".

Smileless -- Elena's daughter is not the one who wants contact and is not getting it, so how would the "old question" apply to her?

How do I get through to my daughter to make her see how wrong she is.

Try this instead

How do I reassure my daughter whose child has been exposed to sexual behaviour that her stepfather is not responsible? Is there anything I should be asking her?

Yes. You need to ask her why she believes that. You need to ask her if your granddaughter said anything to her son. You need to ask her if her stepfather has ever been inappropriate with her. You need to listen to her answers.

elena, How was your daughters relationship with her stepfather before all of this?

This is coming across as though she might feel he was unsafe long before this, and now finally has an “excuse” to cut him off.

Maybe that "old question" should be put to elena's D.

If abuse can't be proven then it didn't happen and we should always just take people at their word even when they are contradicting themselves? Nope.

There is so much dysfunctional thinking in what elena wrote (much of which has been pointed out already) that it makes it very hard to take anything she says as 'fact'.

Some people refuse to overlook flat-Earth mentality when they see it. If daughter sees the world as round, 'mom' is not going to convince her that the world is flat/that she is wrong.

It sounds like grand-daughter got counselling etc. and should be 'fixed', but it is clear that there is way more going on in the family then the broken child and that is being ignored/diminished due to denial of an overall family/generational problem.

Ignoring/denial of there being something 'wrong' in the family beyond the Scapegoat members, then there will never be healing or reconciliation.

So it's the "old question"... Do you want to be 'right' or do you want to fix what's broken and be happier/get what you want? Which should be to heal the family rift/end estrangement, because you really cannot have both.

People who walk away from their families often cite being tired of being 'wrong' all the time/scapegoated as one of the reasons. The opening line of the comment was, How do I get through to my daughter to make her see how wrong she is.

We only have the word of elana Hithere. That's the problem when we have a post from a GP whose upset because they're not allowed to see their GC, we're never supposed to to take their word but it's OK to make our own assumptions.