ESTRANGED NARCISSISTIC ADULT SON

NannaR
Do you have fears for your son's treatment of his children?
You say the parents are 'calmly comfortable' with their co-parenting.
If that's so, and the children are happy it seems there's nothing you can do.
What have the children been told about the reason for stopping contact with you?

As for me it was the therapist who said that, I didn't need him as much as others, I just needed someone to listen and help me unravel some very awful childhood. Counselling was amazing for me but I do sometimes wonder what a good therapist could have done.

Anniebach I see what you mean...

Does the psychiatrist not give this information to the patients
G.P. not in a letter to the patient

It’s all so very sad, a 11 year old lives alone with an alcoholic
father who the child loves.

What troubles me about this, would a 40 year old woman who
had been left to live with an alcholic parent when age 11 be so
quickly condemned

I wonder if the psychiatrist proclaimed this man wasn't suitable for treatment, as a result of which the patient claimed he'd been told he was 'normal'.
I've never known a psychiatrist give 'normal' as a diagnosis. Unsuitable for treatment usually means some kind of enduring personality problem or disorder.

starblaze, the O/P did research and declares her son mentally ill but a psychiatrist declared him absolutely normal,
in writing.

A counsellor is not a psychiatrist

Excellent reply MOnica. My brother fits the narcissist mould and created trauma for many years for my parents bowing to his demands in the name of PEACE. It upped a scale when my father passed away and my mother was unwell. He treated his ex wife basically the same and manipulated his children wanting them to earn his love. They have grown up and due to the strength of his ex they have happy lives. Because they met and married their father did not want anything to do with them as they chose to be with someone other than him. He has grandchildren he has never met but now spends most of his time in Thailand producing more victims. I had many a threat from him when I was trying to support my mum through dementia but sadly the services out to protect were lacking. The police, medical teams and doctors do not want to deal with these kinds of people as they are very clever and it’s never their fault (narcissist) it’s everyone else’s. Social Services said he was emotionally abusing my mum but couldn’t do anything. The best thing I would do is completely cut the son out of all their lives as he will NEVER change. That was the advice I was given by someone who provides services for those with personality disorders. The DIL needs a wake up call and protect them from this BULLY.

I was worrying about that too, when I first read it Anniebach

Maybe it was court appointed Anniebach?

I referred myself to a therapist once and he discharged me to counselling almost immediately. Said I wasn't crazy and my family were toxic. I was most disappointed I didn't get some sort of certificate lol

I have never heard of a psychiatrist writing a letter for a
patient saying the patient is absolutely normal

Please be careful contacting your GC while he is so clearly unstable. Mental health has taken a downturn for many right now and with existing mental health issues he may go over the edge if found out. I'm not really sure what you can do to resolve such a sad situation but I hope you do in time.

Thank you for coming back and updating us NannyR.

I'm glad that you are your H took the step to seek professional help and guidance and that you both found it beneficial.

I'm so sorry that this situation has impacted on your relationship not only with your son and d.i.l., but with your GC, and I hope that you'll be able to carry on supporting your d.i.l. despite the difficulty that her agreeing to keep her distance from you presents.

x

Who really knows what happened while your son was in the care of his father?
Certainly, in his mind, he may well be blaming you and his stepfather for the break up of his home, no doubt seeing his alcoholic father in the state he probably got into and also no doubt being told that it was all your fault, rather than his father's weakness that caused the problem in the first place!
I can fully understand your DiL wanting to keep the peace but she needs to see a solicitor before she signs anything and also social services needs to be involved to try where possible, to keep harm to the children to a minimum (and yes I know that may well be impossible)
For whatever reason, he has decided to leave the family home - his current girlfriend will always support what he says or does, because she will only have heard one side of the story - your DiL will also have been painted as the one in the wrong.
I think that your son needs to see a counseller to work out the issues that he has from his childhood. This desperation he has to control his ex wife and so his children shouts that he felt that he had no control as a child and is determined that he will not loose control as an adult, whatever the cost.
The main thing is obviously the children and without outside help, the pattern may well repeat in that future generation. Whatever you do, please continue to support your DiL.

NannaR, I feel this is a reasonably positive outcome.
Thank you for the update, it’s a thread I remember well.
Lockdown is very much a time for contemplation, I hope at the end of it we will have all learned something valuable.

I did pledge to update my status regarding my Estrangement. I must first thank all contributors to the thread. You really did give me and DH strength. Your comments were so “en pointe” and helped us to rationalise our situation. As they say – it is good to talk, really it is.

DH and I took the plunge (before lockdown) and consulted with a Clinical Psychologist (CP) in a City not too far from us – for both anonymity from the local community and accessibility in the case of future need.

She was young, but well qualified. No detriment to her age, but I’m supposing that the experience curve can only be on the rise. That said, she was well versed academically, and it was refreshing to receive feedback that wasn’t the patronising counselling type. She gave it as it was. The most rewarding element of the session was for me and DH having the chance to talk, together, from the beginning, to a learned ear.

I took the introduction right back to my son’s childhood – even enlightening myself that there was, if not a causal influence, but certainly a contributing factor, from when he was “cared for” by my ex abusive Husband, influenced by him for at least those 7 years that I, as Mother, was not to be respected. I now believe, having talked this through, that this was the foundation for his current disdain. Or am I looking for an excuse still?

DH also benefitted from talking. He has done little of that, other than in anger. His love had also been betrayed. It certainly helped him – although resolved nothing.

We did most of the talking. The CP even allowed our 1-hour session to extend 30 mins into her lunch hour. She summarised. Yes, she has to agree that the scenario does support some sort of Personality Disorder, although she couldn’t commit to outright Narcissism. It’s so much more complicated, and without having had opportunity to assess my Son then she couldn’t comment further. She advised that all we can do is to protect ourselves – and that we wouldn’t benefit in any other way from further sessions with her unless my Son were to consult.

We left, satisfied that we had achieved some outcome, if only for ourselves – but also that, if my Son were to experience another “breakdown” then we would have an emergency point of referral for him to get help – with or without us.

These last weeks of lockdown have been tough. Not for any practical reasons – we’re managing very well – but because we now have no contact support for our GC. Ex DiL has kept to her Agreement and kept her distance from us. No encouragement for the GC to keep in touch. No social contacts. I do send daily text messages to one, and have managed a couple of elicit Facetimes, but they seem empty.

Next? Well … lesson learned is to expect nothing. Draw on fond memories, but all has changed. Much as all of our lives will have done.

What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger x

My heart goes out to you and DH, NannaR, as well as poor XDIL. I feel for the children, too, if they're caught in the middle of a lot of tension. But, fortunately, you say they seem to be happy w/ the co-parenting arrangement. It's not an unusual one these days, to my knowledge, so I doubt that, in itself, is causing any harm.

However, if XDIL is worried about your son's reaction when there's a problem w/ one of the children, that, IMO, is a cause for concern. But IDK if there is much you can do about it if she won't. Maybe if you had tangible evidence of some kind of child abuse, but you probably don't.

I take it that it came as quite a shock when DS expressed his unhappiness, and I am so sorry about that. It sounds as if the immediate issues were in his marriage, though, since he already had a new partner. Why he struck out at everyone else around him, I don't understand, and can see why you felt it might mean he had a MH problem.

I do understand his being upset if XDIL didn't inform him about an issue concerning one of the children. After all, he is their parent, too. However, since she was worried about his reaction, I also understand why she didn't tell him.

It's not clear to me how that translated into his not wanting her to contact you. Perhaps he thought you influenced her to keep quiet even though you didn't? Or maybe he was angry if he thought/found out you and DH knew about the situation even when he didn't? Or was it his way of, effectively, cutting you and DH out of the DGC's lives since neither he nor XDIL communicate w/ you now? I'm not sure if you're getting to see the DGC anymore. But I suspect you aren't, and, IMO, that is so sad.

IMO, since the contract is merely a copy and he's not asking you to sign anything, I would read it, just to be sure I knew what it said. I know XDIL told you the "rules," but she might, inadvertently, have failed to repeat everything the way it is written. I would want to look for myself. But that's up to you and DH, of course.

I agree w/ others that it's not enforceable. And that it's bullying to use nasty texts, etc., as a way to get her to sign. Not to mention that DS doesn't have a right to tell XDIL who she may and may not contact. But, as you seem to feel, yourself, it's her choice if she decides to accept all this.

I'm glad you're not taking any specific action till you think this situation over more carefully. I trust you'll make a wise decision in the end. And I'm glad you intend to keep us posted. xx

Fray

NannaR ...Thank you for the reply. Best of luck to you and your family.

M0nica .... no need for apologies (to me) one of my pet peeves is bullying, so it could be said I dived into the frey with as much frustration as you did!!

For the record, seeing people standing on the sidelines fiddling whilst they watch Rome burn, is another! (Hope that's an appropriate analogy?)
Although I'm sure that wasn't NannaR intention.
Anyway, I look forward to your posts on any subject.
Have a good day, regardless of the weather!!

I can see that both Namsnanny and M0nica have my and my GC's best interests at heart. I am grateful for the input of you both - and all. I too can associate with an acquaintance I had some years ago with two GP's who were, misguidedly IMO, cajoled into excessive financial support by an abusive GS. I too am anxious not to forget the learning of that relationship. It ended badly.

I am currently in the self-examination stage. I need to satisfy myself that there is not a less destructive route that I should be taking. Once I have full reassurance then I shall take any necessary steps to protect my three GC. Trust me … I don't want them to become the victims, even at the expense of my relationship with my DS. I have a very supportive DH. I can do this, no matter how long it will take!

Namsnanny, perhaps frustrated rather than angry. I cannot bear to see children or any vulnerable person suffering when action can be taken that will alleviate that suffering.

I think too often when people come in with gently soft options it somehow enables an OP who ever they may be, to have the support of their sympathy without seeing that they are all saying, much as I say.

I usually post, as I have on this thread, well down the thread, never at the start and eventually spell it out. I am sorry if it sounds brutal, but some years ago I saw two elderly people hounded to sad deaths by a bullying brute of a son. He lived with them had take over their lives and money. Police were involved, Social Services and the charity I worked for, but it was at a time when no prosecution could take place unless the victims consented and they refused, even though there were independent witnesses to his violence.

They were convinced that there was nothing wrong with their son that could not be sorted by a course of counselling, if only he would agree - and stuck to it regardless of what happened to them and would not countenance any other action. In the end they both died, earlier than seemed needful, driven to their deaths by the fear of their son and the way he made their lives a misery with violence and bullying, That case scarred me for life.

I am sorry if I came across as bullying, it was not intentional.

M0nica ...I for one do not care how angry you get.
This is not about you or your unnecessarily heavy handed and possible biased reply.
Have a care when you weld your opinions that you do not come across as a bully yourself.

For the record when putting aside all the words of emotional bias, the core of what you suggest (legal advice) is the best way to go IMV and that of some other posters.

He's breaking the law and the contract is void if she signs it. Emotional abuse is illegal.

*NannaR. I could not work out from your original posts whether solicitors had been used to agree the arrangements for your DGC care or not. But as you did not specify and given you accepted your son's contracts without getting a solicitor to look it, I erred on the side of caution and assumed solicitors had not been involved

Your poor DiL sounds ground down by her ex's controling behaviour, but the only way to stop it, is to stand up and challenge it. My worry is all for your grandchildren.

i have come back to this thread just to see how things are panning out. Monica is spot on, its as I said you need proper advice and involve everyone, police, SS and legal. Don't let this bully feed on your fear. I know he is your son, but that doesn't stop him being a bully, you all need to do the right thing for the sake of your dil and gc.

I do totally understand and respect your postings M0nica. The picture is clear, and I thank you for being so logical and caring enough to make your points. In saying that, and maybe even whilst I pluck up the courage to finally and terminally blow up all relationships, I am thinking that - if Mother and Father in this situation are calmly comfortable with getting on with their own co-parenting under the terms of the new Contract, albeit without the paternal GP's, isn't it the best option to leave "well" alone? In my heart, I do feel sure that there will be more upset to come - in which case I shall absolutely share your points with DiL. She has once already refused to ask for SS support, and the Police had previously no attitude towards intervening. They simply provided safe exit. The co-parenting arrangement was governed through the divorce process with a Solicitor, but I see no supervision of that situation - the biggest failing in this arrangement, I fear.

I recall when my Son was young, there was no way that he would have agreed to leave his Father's control. He loved him for who and what he was. End of. I feel that my three DGC would take the same stance. They have shown no distress regarding the co-parenting arrangement, as yet.

Thinking further - I shall take some impartial, professional Counsellor advice, largely for myself and DH, although hoping that there might be a point of support that I can offer to my son in the future, should he ever agree that he needs such help.

I shall also discuss the legal options in general with said Counsellor, with a view to pursing any appropriate civil action in the event that another situation arises, particularly where DiL and/or DGC are affected. Thank you for the nudge.

And yes, Smileless2012 and Barmeyoldbat - I shall keep you posted of any developments over time. Fingers crossed that they will be positive