I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.
It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.
Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.
The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."
Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."
I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.
I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."
Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.
The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous
C-PTSD is created by abuse. It is not genetic or comes on due to other factors.
Mental illness is sometimes created by upbringing. Not always. I am sorry you experienced that Holy Hannah
I love how many of these articles state IF the AC has a mental illness or is an drug/alcohol user... Thanks to my upbringing/child abuse I do suffer from mental illness. I also had addiction issues for the same reasons.
Sooo... My 'family' created my mental health issues, when I got help and saw the whole picture (that I wasn't the only person with a 'problem') I tried to enact changes that I thought would make everyone happier.
LOL My 'family' didn't/doesn't want 'happy'. They want me to be the whole "problem" so they can maintain their fantasy of perfection.
It is so much easier to say that 11 pages of grievances is "all lies" then acknowledge that there might be a single truth in there.
Unless of course someone can provide an example of an EP who received one of these letters and said, "My AC wrote me a well thought out and detailed letter of their reason for distancing from me/the family. I intend to work on everything they wrote so we can move toward healing."
Issendai has done exhaustive research and has nailed every aspect in their writing. I have found the source material for most of the stories and there is sooo much of that out there. Whether people can accept the truth is another matter.
issendai.com/wp/estrangement/on-no-contact-letters-with-a-tangent-about-the-police/
It's about EP forums and having read further bears no relation to any EP forum I've ever been on. Yet another example of a need I simply don't understand to denigrate all EP's.
Sad really.
I've just googled that Hithere and can see why you "love" it.
An informative and helpful article rosecarmel; thanks for the link.
Love issendai
Nobody knew the impact that some prescription drugs would have on anyone, including minors and young adults that were prescribed medications for various types of pain-
People trusted doctors, what they chose to prescribe and pharmacists because they were the experts- We now know that didn't turn out well-
Estrangement can alleviate some of the pain but doesn't treat the underlying causes-
That is a very interesting article rosecàrmel providing a balanced range of possibilities around estrangement. The Yes, No, Maybe options allow for the many many different circumstances that bring about estrangement
Any 'expert' on estrangement if they're worth their salt knows that estrangement is sometimes due to a third party, peer influence, mental health issues or drug and alcohol abuse.
Smileless Very true!
medium.com/@bethbruno2015/is-estrangement-always-the-parents-fault-fa4aa0c33631
If, as the child gets older, they do not update their story, they can react from their rehearsed narrative of the situation and not from the truth.
It's a short article-
Pantglas what's needed is mutual acceptance, belief, respect, understanding and compassion
.
Very well said Smileless - there is no one size fits all in the estrangement situation and for anyone to suggest that is disingenuous, manipulative and controlling in itself in my opinion.
Yes, a wall is a wall rosecarmel.
I'm in no better position to determine which EP's are unjustly estranged than you are Holyhannah. Likewise neither of us can determine which EAC have 'justly' estranged their parents.
You make constant references to the things you have read that EP's say, the majority of which cast EP's in a bad light, but without providing the source of your information.
My knowledge comes from my personal experience and from the experiences of other EP's that I've interacted with here, and on sites for EP's. There are often too many similarities to be mere coincidences.
It's insulting to say "everyone who is an expert on estrangement knows the 'standard' EP response to the No Contact message...IT is all "lies"". Sometimes it is all lies. Any 'expert' on estrangement if they're worth their salt knows that estrangement is sometimes due to a third party, peer influence, mental health issues or drug and alcohol abuse.
EAC don't have the monopoly of truth or pain and suffering; EP's/EGP's experience those too.
We didn't receive "11 pages of grievances" we received a 4 page email of bile, bitterness and anger. The memory which right now is making my hands shake and tying my stomach in knots.
Had we been given something to work with, we'd have moved heaven and earth to avoid our estrangement, to avoid losing our son and only GC.
When we were asked to give them space we did. When we were told to wait until they contacted us to see them and our GC, we waited but the contact never came.
No doubt you'll continue with your posts the majority of which seek to portray all EP's as the villain but do not presume that your blinkered view of EP's relates in any way to me or Mr. S.
I have empathy for you and any EAC who posts here of their pain and is brave enough to speak of the abuse they have endured. It would be nice if you did the same with EP's; acknowledged their suffering through no fault of their own and stopped tarring us all with the 'evil parent' brush.
Smileless -- This is one of the huge divides in the estrangement debate. Abusive EP's and self-proclaimed 'good' EP's say the same things. So how can anyone determine which EP's are unjustly estranged versus abusive parents who are very much the cause of their estrangement?
Most EAC try many different methods to try to improve the relationship with the offender before walking way/No Contact. The fact of the matter is, I have read threads where multiple EP's said, "Well, I saw 'signs' that my child was unhappy etc. but I didn't think it would lead to estrangement." So there is some acknowledgment that their child DID make an effort to improve/change the situation and also the truth of, "Yeah, I knew what I was saying/doing wasn't being 'received well' but instead of modifying my behavior, because I've always 'gotten away with it', I'll just keep doing what I always do because to change would be an admission I was maybe 'wrong' which is dangerously close to an apology."
Then when the AC realizes that not only is the 'parent' not going to change and finally stand-up to/"become 'disrespectful'" to the parent/expect and want to be treated like an equal adult, the abuse/'power play' becomes worse.
So, the AC realizes, "The more I expect to be treated the way THEY demand to be treated, the crappier they treat Me." And the subtle message/undertone of how the Scapegoat child is treated is finally 'recognized' by the abused child.
So whether AC explain like they did to an EP who said, "I’ve shared before about the first time we went to counseling with ES/DIL (and the history leading up to that), and how we were blindsided by their 10-theme, 11-page list of our (mostly my) supposed offenses toward them." OR We walk away without saying anything... The result is the same...
"We don't know why We are estranged!" or the, "It's the 'evil son/daughter in law'." but never, "Yeah, I got an 11 page letter and there was a lot of truth in it. I can see some of their points and given the scope and length? There is a lot of 'hurt' there. As a loving parent, IF my child believes I was the one that caused their pain, real/perceived/influenced or otherwise, I want to get to the root of the issue of what caused them to send me 11 pages of grievances."
It doesn't matter what 'side' you are on, everyone who is an expert on estrangement knows the 'standard' EP response to the No Contact message... IT is all "lies" or insert all the other 'justifications' of why the child(ren) are 'wrong' in what they said...
Same goes when your parent doesn't communicate and you're sitting right next to them- A wall is a wall is a wall ..
I don't see how there can be anything worse for any parent then to be met with a wall of silence. God knows, receiving a hand written note from your son telling you you are no longer a part of his and his child's life is bad enough, but to be told nothing, and be unable to get any answers must be far worse.
Lol although my best friend says that I should stop trying to see the best in everyone x
Probably best to give some sort of closure if the intent is to estrang but might just be not replying for a while not trusting themselves not to say something that makes things worse. Probably depends x
If an AC hasn't estranged and hasn't said they don't want any contact, to just stop replying would be a very cruel thing to do.
I wonder if some ACs just stop replying, if they haven't asked for no contact, that's probably different? x
I agree Yennifer, we don't contact our ES at all, never sent a birthday or Christmas card in more than 7 years, but it is something that some counsellors and therapists recommend.
I mentioned the above because it might be an abuse cycle, mild or severe-
Society goes through phases of what behavior is healthy and acceptable and what isn't- And it messes with people's heads, maybe for the sake of progress?
When someone is talking, in person or not, can you determine if the person speaking simply needs to be heard and understood or if they're trying to convince you not only that they're right but that you should think what they think too?
Oh boy ... Birthday celebrations .. Pure torture for introverted kids .. There's video that exists of a family member as a child, sitting in a lawn chair, wrapped in a towel, staring out of saucer wide eyes at the other children laughing, splashing and having a good time ..
Always the loner, and still is, incredibly themselves and independent-
I think if someone asks you for no contact you just have to respect that Smileless2012, even if it's hard. Maybe at the beginning let them know that you will respect their need for space and you will always be thinking of them then they have that in writing. My counsellor would advise the opposite. Counsellors are people with their own takes on things as well. Maybe an EC that doesn't get a card is more likely to reach out if they feel upset by not getting anything. For me getting things is just proof my feelings and needs aren't being respected x
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