Yennifer, those bulleted behaviors ring true- And I think they occur because people become fearful-
I know more than one person who is abusive, selfish and neglectful and yet incredibly compassionate, kind and giving- Neither side of them is consistent, other than consistently being one way or the other-
Gransnet forums
Estrangement
The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.
(480 Posts)I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.
It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.
Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.
The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."
Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."
I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.
I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."
Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.
The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous
Can you be a piece of something and still be complete/whole? I think so- Truthful discussions lead to understanding, understanding can lead to making amends-
Reunions aren't a priority- Responsibility is- Which is something people realize after amends are made and not before in many situations-
And if someone doesn't want to make amends, then move on- The effort was made- You never know how much the effort in itself means to people even if they refuse to sit down and have a discussion-
I've seen this play out in friends marriages now too and it makes so much sense. Obvs this changes when the victim gets away and hopefully gets help to see this too x
When I first went to counselling, I really thought it was all my fault. My mother swore blind I was the abusive one and mentally ill. She said she was the victim of me. I was very confused and struggling with it all. This is info I was given that helped me understand. Hang on, pictures coming x
The hardest thing is allowing that we are all less than perfect
If only we could all take this on board as our core belief system.
Places such as this wouldn't exist.
Unhappily they do.
No nothing justifies it Yennifer and if you went through it, why on earth would you do it to someone else when you know how it feels.
Oh I do like that ananimous "If you can repair a smashed vase - do not hand that vase back to the person who was careless with it".
I never held a grudge in my life until estrangement and now it's been years.
Sometimes you win when you lose...
and sometimes you lose when you win.
Maybe this feeling was, and is, totally justified?
If you can repair a smashed vase - do not hand that vase back to the person who was careless with it.
Smileless2012 s there isn't a thing that justifies abuse is there? Is there any human being on this planet that does not know right from wrong whatever addiction, mental health issue, personality disorder or terrible trauma? Probably not x
I've been told I was difficult in all stages of childhood. I don't know how true that is really, I don't remember being naughty much. As an adult my worst behaviour was probably during and after estrangement. When I was angry and starting to understand things were really bad and it had happened and I wasn't crazy or having a good imagination. I swore and shouted at times and I begged and pleaded for things to change at times. Just got laughed at really. I never held a grudge in my life until estrangement and now it's been years. It's not a normal grudge though, it's not angry or wanting to hurt anyone or even not forgiving. It's just, no more. I can't be doing with this any more. This is the only way it would ever stop x
I agree
(The hardest thing for the dysfunctional parent who is not self aware) : hence *"My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement"
Complete and utter denial of their own toxic parenting affecting their offspring, and causing estrangement further down the line.
I would agree with them Yennifer a historical cycle of abuse doesn't justify it's perpetuation.
The hardest thing is allowing that we are all less than perfect, so that you can aspire higher in relationships of all types.
Very true ananimous
The parent who takes no responsibility for the results of their own parenting style/dysfunction, as it pertains to the estrangement, remains in denial of their abusive family pattern.
To question: Who is the scapegoat in the family is as good a place to start if you really want to be "red-pilled".
The hardest thing is allowing that we are all less than perfect, so that you can aspire higher in relationships of all types.
That's true, everyone knows their own feelings best, thats just not what I was talking about. I think a lot of abused ECs do know about the cycle of abuse, they just don't see it as any justification x
I agree that abused EC know "exactly why they end up in that situation". That said, understanding one's own situation goes further than knowing why it happened. It's also about understanding the affect it's had on our lives and our reactions to it.
An abused EC knows they estranged because of the abuse they suffered but not necessarily know why that abused occurred.
Not really Smileless2012, lots of EPs say they don't know why they have been estranged, much easier for abused ECs to know exactly why they end up in that situation x
Yes that does make sense rosecarmel; a good post.
I agree that abused ED have most understanding of their own situation just as do EP's and EGP's. No one ones our individual experiences as well as we do.
The support thread is for all living with estrangement although the majority of posters are EP's/EGP's. There are also contributions from those who aren't estranged which is to expected and their insight can be helpful and informative.
I stay away from the support thread and maybe vice versa should be true in order for people to all get support here. Unless someone wants or needs advice and different ideas are a help to work out what went wrong x
I don't think what we have here would ever really work without someone trained to guide the discussion rosecarmel! I came for support from my generation and was attacked. I bet some EPs feel the same way. What could be really interesting and educating is just angry and "what about me" all the time. I think abused ECs do have the most understanding in their own situations tho. We know we aren't the abandoners we are made out to be because even when it's our decision, it was forced and we still feel abandoned x
rosecarmel … neither honestly wants to acknowledge that each is both victim and perp to differing degrees in their familial collective history
Fair point.
The way I see it, there's a my way or the highway on the estrangement/communication highway itself when parties on a two lane highway are headed in different directions-
I hope that makes sense and that someone can address/assess/correct my perception of that if necessary-
Thanks!
Because there's a perp and victim type dichotomy driving so many of these discussions/threads, or relationship highways, where neither honestly wants to acknowledge that each is both victim and perp to differing degrees in their familial collective histories-
Help!
I do like to try different views on for size- Sometimes they're helpful and can be applied- And sometimes they spell trouble and make a mess! But for me, it beats being stuck and broken down on the side of the road because I just had to have things my way, be it north, east, west or south .. 
She died being largely unaware of how her dysfunction manifested
Ananimos, I am only superficially familiar with Alice Miller's work, I want to read more but I did not know that about her!
Do you perchance have a link to more information on that specific issue?
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