The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.

Most people assemble peacefully - Others choose to riot

It's possible to be combative and defend others without the need to riot with the often consequences of violence, the destruction of other peoples' property and looting.

As for those who chose to riot, only though they know if it's to express the "language of the unheard" or a perceived opportunity to break the law.

Again Smileless not everything I say is related to you or anyone else here and it wasn't a workable assumption to make or something you needed to address/pull up. You are looking at it from your own perspective, I was talking from mine.

Perspectives are interesting things. You can look at that blob on the horizon and think it is a wolf. Unless you change your perspective, you may never know. Walk a little closer and you may find a sheep.

In my case, when I needed perspective on my mum, I went and saw a counsellor. We walked closer and we found a pack of wolves.

In most cases perspective is different depending on where you are standing. That's the origin of the word itself.

Anyone who stands rigid preferring the view from where they are and not making the effort to walk to another person's vantage point or look at the issue a little closer/in a different light, is only hurting/limiting themselves themselves.

we were talking, you weren't here. Nothing was a thought in my mind except the subject and the people I was talking to at the time. Perhaps you should broaden your concept of an open forum. People drop in and out of ongoing discussions all the time, which is why clarity is important and ambiguity leads to miss understanding.

Smileless2012

For me it depends on the situation rosecarmel as I said in my post. It isn't always being combative and/or defensive of ourselves, but sometimes for others.

Black Lives Matter-

Most people assemble peacefully- Others choose to riot-

According to MLK, rioting is the language of the unheard- He didn't condone it- He provided an explanation of such a result- A concise assessment intended for those with a history of not holding them accountable -

Or EPs here not preps

Smileless we were talking, you weren't here. Nothing was a thought in my mind except the subject and the people I was talking to at that time.

You appeared and pulled up my words unnecessarily as related to you or gransnet preps here which I feel is a recurring issue.

You can either address that you do that within yourself or not but it's not actually my problem.

Your perception is your perception but it's up to you to look at your perceptions and address any defensiveness or combatitiveness on your part. For my part as I contributed ge rally to discussion earlier, I want to leave that behind me.

For me it depends on the situation rosecarmel as I said in my post. It isn't always being combative and/or defensive of ourselves, but sometimes for others.

Well to clarify Starblaze if your post referring to your words being taken out of context and not applying to the discussion being had at the time, was not directed to me, then please say so.

This is the problem with posts that are at times ambiguous, one cannot be certain who they are being applied too.

There is nothing in my post, or any of my posts for that matter, that even suggests your need to prove or justify anything about your experiences.

This is an open forum for discussion. Discussion often results in different opinions and points of view being aired, and contributors often being asked for clarification of what they have said, which is not the same thing as asking for proof or justification of their personal experiences.

When I estranged there was effort on 2 fronts. To tell me that people around me were unhealthy and to tell people around me I was unhealthy.

No one believed/took any notice.

Healthy thinkers must look like aliens to unhealthy thinkers but thankfully the reverse is also true lol

rosecarmel -- "She couldn't hold herself accountable for not raising me" -- I think that's a common theme with abusers in the sense of regardless of where you 'fall' in the the family pecking order, abusers don't really "raise" any of their children.

When a home is "survival of the fittest" mentality, certain 'players' just have more leverage/'support'. Husband (middle child) was the Scapegoat. His younger brother was the Golden and his older brother the 'forgotten' child who only got positive attention when he was 'protecting' the Golden.

It's like some weird family circus and when you walk away from it, THEY think/believe you are 'running away' TO "the circus". Because who would walk away from such wonderful and loving people?

Smileless2012

I do think there are occasions when it's better to be combative rather than leave for example an injustice unchallenged, and for me the same applies when it comes to defensiveness, either for ones self or for someone unable to defend themselves.

I personally find the presenting of views that challenge the ones I present a form of support- They don't need to be combative, defensive or confrontational in "tone" to draw attention to them to be considered-

Consideration can take ages in some cases, take longer than pickles to ferment and in extreme cases thousand year eggs-

Nothing about any of what I said has to apply for you Smileless

My life experiences/what I see and hear are obstacles for child abuse victims are what they are. I do not have to prove or justify anything that happens anywhere because it is the truth.

I fail to see how you are able to apply what I say to either gransnet or yourself when gransnet is only a platform to talk on, not the pinnacle of all life and existence.

In the interest of not wanting to be forced to defend myself, perhaps you could look at the bigger picture because it isn't helpful or productive for anyone and I value my spare time too much to constantly spend it clarifying meaning when that generally isn't accepted anyway.

If you can do that, perhaps we can ommunicate in a more positive way in future...

Starblaze -- What's truly shocking is the, "You are wrong even when you are correct" mentality. When I would high-light that dynamic, my 'mom' was great with popping off the old, "Even a stopped clock is 'right' twice a day!" platitude.

My reply, "I must be a broken 'stopped clock' because it's still right two times more a day then Me!"

I can laugh at it now as well... It's just a sad laugh.

Yes, the Butler case awful as they all are. I wonder who came up with the saying 'the camera never lies' when we all know that it can and does.

I didn't see anything in the article posted about children who lost their lives to abuse, that referred too adults accounts of their abuse being laughed at, invalidated and people trying to make them look bad.

I referred specifically to what you posted Starblaze so if your comment about your words being taken out of context is to me, I don't see how it applies.

My mother admitted that she didn't like me- An admittance that could have led to a healthy, transparent discussion but didn't- I stood there and "took it"- And that was that -- at the time ..

Years later she attempted reparations- But it didn't pan out- She couldn't hold herself accountable for not raising me, for giving birth to me and then just letting me be feral because her other children came first-

Being feral had it's perks ..

Holyhannah I completely understand. Ive seen that so often with my mum, even to the point that she, in discussion with me would say I was wrong but in discussion with someone else would say exactly what I said verbatim. I can laugh at it now

Sorry there are now 2 comments between mine and the one I was responding to

Possibly but that actually doesn't apply to anything I have said today at all.

Ive just seen how my words were used out of the context of the discussion that was being had at the time.

Context matters and it's a shame to join a discussion and just pick out bits that could be pulled up and argued against instead of looking at the wider picture and showing support/understanding.

The children in the article Holyhannah posted lost their lives to abuse.

That's not how I want to communicate so I tend to just not engage now rather than pointlessly explaining the truth which exists regardless of my best efforts to display it.

Starblaze -- I love when I say something and am not believed. A different person (someone who is not disliked) can say the exact same thing I did and now it's intelligent/right etc. I would look at my 'mom' and say, "But that's exactly what I said..." Then you get the snotty giggle like, "Yes. I know BUT because you said 'it', it is wrong. If it had come from a good/smart person (someone not you), that's 'different'."

Even when I was right/correct I was still 'wrong'. How can you build a positive relationship with a person that fundamentally has contempt and scorn for everything you say/do/your very existence.

I guess it's why I would like a little true honesty from my own 'mom'. It would be nice to hear the truth... "I don't like you. I never liked you/let alone loved you and it doesn't matter what you do... You'll never be good enough." It would let Us both off the hook. I could stop trying/hoping for the situation to improve and I could feel like it wasn't something I did to make her treat me the way she did.

If a parent doesn't like/love their own child, that's an adult problem. Taking it out on a minor child? Definitely not the child's problem/fault...

Genuine smiles aren't dependent upon facts but feelings -- that are fleeting-

Facebook/Instagram are saturated with "happiness"-

People have commented on photographs of me that captured moments of contentment- Yet their impression of my expression was seen as "not happy"-

The abused children in those photos could have been happy in that moment- Hopeful- Because they didn't know they were being coerced into making an appearance but believed for precious few seconds that they belonged to a loving, nuclear unit- Convinced by their parent and in the Butler case also the court that awarded custody to a proven sick individual-

I do think there are occasions when it's better to be combative rather than leave for example an injustice unchallenged, and for me the same applies when it comes to defensiveness, either for ones self or for someone unable to defend themselves.

I actually think in general rosecarmel that, I don't have to carry that shield to be protected, I don't have to make what others say about me when it isn't. I don't have to be combatative or defensive.

I want to be a healthy thinker and to do that I can't be egocentric.

It's a lesson I've learned being in a dynamic I have never seen or experienced before. Thank you.

Imagine being that smug person not believing another adults story of abuse, laughing at it, invalidating them, trying to somehow make them look bad because ....

I can't imagine anyone doing that to someone talking about their experience of child hood abuse but have seen it in other cases, where EP's are sharing their experiences for example.

As for Who knows really, maybe they have been accused of abuse and cannot accept it. Yes, who knows; who knows if they have been falsely accused of abuse so are sadly cynical when they hear about it.

.....an assertive reminder that you're already standing on your own two feet and need to just keep walking away and
*Sometimes maybe the further you get from the truth, the better*; I like those rosecarmel.

That's a good point rosecarmel

No abuse victim should have to carry the truth around like some sort of sheild.

The truth is behind us and should be allowed to remain so.

"ouch."

It hurts to read- But at the same time encourages and reaffirms- And not in a stubborn, dig in your heels unhealthy way- More like an assertive reminder that you're already standing on your own two feet and need to just keep walking away-

Sometimes maybe the further you get from the truth, the better-