Starblaze -- "The idea that we must be following a script always makes me laugh." Me too. Oddly a lot of EP's miss that they have a 'script' as well.
"I didn't do anything to deserve estrangement."
"I was a 'good' mother."
"They (EAC) rewrite the past/lie/make up excuses to justify their behavior."
"It's the evil third-party..."
"I don't have anything to apologize for..."
"God help me, I wish I could for just one day, one hour, put these “kids” into some kind of situation where they could see and experience the the devastation they are inflicting on good, kind, caring people. It is sick, sick, sick behavior." But it's not "sick, sick, sick" behavior to wish pain on your child regardless of what they have 'done'? Like, that's the attitude that probably was an issue before their child(ren) went No Contact.
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Estrangement
The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.
(480 Posts)I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.
It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.
Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.
The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."
Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."
I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.
I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."
Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.
The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous
It's almost as if us setting boundaries and saying what behaviour we are not willing to be around as adults has had the exact same reaction from some quarters.
The idea that we must be following a script always makes me laugh.
What does everyone tell you to do if your relationship with a partner makes you miserable eh?
Same applies to parents. It's the exact same "script".
The "script" being, walk away from relationships that are harming you because they won't agree to treat you with kindness and respect and find better ones.
This is from an EP and I was actually a little stunned...
Recently had a conversation with someone who has been going through the early stages of rejection/estrangement. It was heartbreaking to hear her talk about how the situation has unfolded. I wish that I could take these young people by the scruff of their necks and just spank their sorry rear ends. To watch this incredibly loving, generous woman try to come to grips with the shock and grief was gut wrenching.
We all know how the “song” plays out:
1. You’re a failure. You didn’t blah blah blah for me.
2. I am your superior and you can’t say anything to defend yourself because you are the culprit.
3. You are not the victim here. This is all about me and how you failed me.
4. You need to see a therapist because you are in denial about how awful you really are.
5. Don’t contact me, I’ll contact you.
6. You are toxic and if you can’t see it is because you are really messed up.
On and on. It is like they are reading from the same sick script. I watched her face as she went through what had been said to her and how she tried to defend herself. Saw the sadness and confusion playing across her face. God help me, I wish I could for just one day, one hour, put these “kids” into some kind of situation where they could see and experience the the devastation they are inflicting on good, kind, caring people. It is sick, sick, sick behavior. I know many would not make the jump from what they experienced to how their behavior is hurting others – but I guess I keep hoping that some would.
All I could do was listen, share the lessons I am learning too late (apologies, apologies, apologies don’t work, taking the abuse won’t work, letting go of my own reality and life won’t work). I wanted so very much to waive a magic wand and make the pain stop.
This is 100% the sort of thing my 'mom' would say...
My thoughts are:
"I wish that I could take these young people by the scruff of their necks and just spank their sorry rear ends." Really? Who the heck does a 'parent' like that think they are? The reverse is, from an abused child/now adult like Me, "I'd break your arm for 'trying'." And if I/or another abused child said or worse endorsed 'that' in self defense? Just think on who wanted to hit who first.
My reality is/was -- My 'mom'/abusers hit Me over and over and over (emotionally/physically etc.) and when I hit my "breaking point" and 'hit back' by walking away? THEY are the 'victim'...
I also loved this statement -- "I am your superior and you can’t say anything to defend yourself because you are the culprit." NO. This is another dysfunctional EP falsehood. I have never met an EAC that thought/thinks they are superior EVER. The only EAC I have met have only ever wanted EQUAL. And that 'theme' is never going to happen...
It's funny how I often hear from EP's that they "never say" certain things or hear other EP's saything them. I find them saying 'those things' quite frequently and then when I provide a quote? That's not a "common thinking" or some other excuse/justification.
"I never claimed to be a perfect parent but believe me, that nearly fifty year old ‘child’ needs her bottom whupped!" -- Boy if we talked about slapping the abuser off of them...
"I’m not trying to sugar-coat anything, or come off as the perfect mother or not take responsibility. I feel like you do, I don’t think I’ve done anything wrong." -- I'd love to know the difference between "not perfect" and having done nothing wrong. Sounds the same to me.
as I've said before, some parents must be so grateful for no contact.
As a theme... How many people that identify as EAC consider themselves to be the Scapegoat in their 'family'?
I am curious to know if there was a good child(ren) and the 'bad child' dynamic going on before going No Contact...
I know after, EP's often refer to the NC child as the 'bad' child... And any of their off-spring that are still talking to them as 'good'.
Funny that just the ACT of not wanting to be around our 'parent' that find Us bad/evil/immature/ungrateful etc. is some kind of assault on THEM. Nothing about those labels being tossed at Us is offensive though...
Oh wait... I 'forgot'... Since that is 'truth' We shouldn't be hurt/offended...
"I would give anything to go back and relish the days when my son loved me and was so excited to give me the gift he made in school…instead of today when all he does is tell me that I am undeserving of any recognition…the thing is, I don’t think I stopped being a good mom…I think he stopped being a good son…"
I can so relate to that... We loved and gave and loved and gave more and when we realize we'll never get the love, approval and respect we want? We become 'bad' kids.
Correction -- We could not pronounce...
I really think that is the general attitude of my mom, that her children were broken/defective and again, not all her fault while also being 'mostly' her fault...
She was the first to seek medical treatment, speech therapy, dental care and any and ALL other 'treatments' available to her children because to her, this is what a 'good mom' would/should do and she could "afford to" (using/spending $$$ to look 'better')
And this is where the dysfunction begins... Some of that stuff was good/the right things to do and needed but the rest was actually looking for and perceiving faults where none were. And all our 'mom' saw were 'faults' in need of "correction" in her kids.
Imagine the horror and humiliation of being pulled from 'normal classes' to be in "need" of a Speech Therapist when you are one of the best spoken in your class/grade? The 'reason' given by our 'mom' was, "You lisped." Our need for advanced 'speech therapy' at as early as 5 was because, like every growing child, we could pronounce everything "perfectly".
This of course gave the bullies their fodder... And while my Golden was protected in the school environment because that was the dynamic that was set up and backed by our 'parents', I got everything dumped on me. In other words, the other kids thought, "We'd laugh and mock both of you but we know we won't get 'in trouble' if we just mock Hannah... So let's bully her."
Madgran -- I really don't know what to think on that one. There is something very 'wrong' in that. I think part of it is comparing AC that estrange as being similar to serial killers.
"If this could be diagnosed early, perhaps an intervention could prevent some of these heart breakers from developing." Well of course. In my case if my mom hadn't abused me as a child I wouldn't have estranged. So yeah, if someone had stopped the dysfunction of the family unit, estrangement could have been prevented. The thing is, that is the parents 'job'. It's almost like she is saying, "I tried absolutely nothing and I'm all out of ideas. Why didn't 'somebody' do 'something' to prevent this from happening?"
Oh wrong thread. Early night I think
I love Jasmine, I always mean to get one but scared I won't be able to keep it alive.
Child probably learnt to hide emotion from her as self preservation. I learnt very quickly being too happy about something meant losing it and being sad meant being ridiculed
HolyHannah Yes I have to say that is a bit of a jawdropper!!
And the defensiveness/denial doesn't necessarily have to be harsh, it can be quite gentle when tip-toeing around the elephant in the room, in the phone call, the text, the discussion, the greeting card, the letter .. etc ..
It's an effort to "get around", and not in an effort to "get around to" addressing the elephant in the room-
My mother told me before she died that she wanted to kill my sibling- Not that she would have- From the outside my sibling appeared completely and totally devoted, their pattern for controlling so intricately planned and precisely executed-
It was "telling" ..
I've been re-reading our collective relationships as a family ever since- Re-weaving a different narrative out of the frayed, entangled threads .. And I feel strengthened by it-
Starblaze -- There's no win and then there's the perceptions/beliefs like this...
Here's a jaw dropper, "You know how when you watch different documentaries about serial killers, and how they talk about how there are “traits” or signs that these people have in common early in childhood. Some of these are bed wetting far beyond what would be considered the norm, setting fires, and the biggy is cruelty and in some cases taking the life of and mutilating animals. Now if these are precursors to diagnosing future serial killers, could this coldness to the death of animals previously attached to, be used to diagnose future parent rejectors? If this could be diagnosed early, perhaps an intervention could prevent some of these heart breakers from developing. Now I realize this is different in that they are grown young adults when this reaction happens, but a reaction in common is still a common reaction. I was just curious as to how many of these EC’s out there had the same cold reaction to the demise of the family pet?"
Just utter no win situations
Starblaze -- There seems to be a disconnect between someone "continuously bringing something up" and the thought that perhaps the reason the 'thing' keeps "coming up" is because the person bringing 'it' up feels like they haven't been heard and the situation resolved.
And if the best reaction that someone can come up with when a child (adult or otherwise) is literally begging to be heard, is to be told, "Get over 'it'. If you're still angry about 'that', go to therapy." And if we take that advice and therapy says, "Walk away, you are never going to 'win'." You are still 'wrong'.
Why do they even think their child might need therapy? Let's go deeper here, what caused your child to need therapy people? Could it be (gasp) something to do with you?
This is exactly how my mum thinks. Like emptying my childhood savings account then telling me it never existed. I still have the piggy money boxes the bank sent every time it hit a certain target amount to prove that it did. Yet I am the crazy one just running around making things up to be mad about.
Starblaze -- What amazed me on that one was how much detail she gave and yet she, nor anyone else could see the problem(s).
Son felt 'ganged up on' according to her. She calls him up, won't be straight with him and when he gets frustrated/'abusive' to her mind, she dumps a massive guilt trip on him.
So after six years he makes an attempt to visit/talk to her and what happens? There is not enough space to write all the questions I asked him which he had no defense for and any explanation he gave held no water and was utter nonsense. I (she meant HE) brought up things that happened over 25 years ago. He never once looked me in the eye when responding and just kept his head down.
Then the cheer-leading/dysfunction begins. All of these EP's that are "willing to listen" and do "whatever they have to do" to fix the relationship, now are demonstrating anything but that attitude.
Then she adds this gem, "Can you believe ES will be 49! He never grew up mentally and he keeps re-hashing the same stuff over and over. All of which is utter and complete nonsense. Get over it already is what I would like to say to him but it will only end up with his being verbally abusive."
Gosh. He's been trying for 25 years to get her to acknowledge 'something' and all he got for trying to 'talk' and 'work things out' was more abuse and invalidation.
And the 'advise' included, "for your son to continually bring up problems from 25 years ago is ridiculous. He has had 25 years to get counseling for whatever he is angry about, and/or discuss with you, like an adult, and resolve it."
"my Ed does the same thing. To have a dialogue is impossible with someone who is only interested in a ranting monologue about stuff that happened (or didn’t) decades ago. This is crazy, if he has issues he should resolve them with you in an adult rational way and/or go to therapy."
For a bunch of non-abusive/healthy/'good parents' where is the behavior and attitude that backs those statements, because there is none of that demonstrated there.
Wow that was sad.
www.rejectedparents.net/forums/topic/i-should-have-known-better/#post-104151
This is one of the saddest things I have read. The amount of dysfunction that gets overlooked is astounding. There is so much behavior that I hear EP's saying they don't 'do' and yet there they are demonstrating them. Poor son and the DARVO.
I continue to speak with my sibling- It can be intermittently healthy- When it isn't, it's brief- Like when they're "splashing", so to speak- And I exit the discussion or step back and don't respond to invites to chat or text-
When I do respond and stop it, it increases the distance and prevents continued "splashing"-
I'm not less- Not for offering measured explanations in an effort to reach an understanding, and not for cutting to the quick-
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