I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.
It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.
Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.
The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."
Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."
I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.
I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."
Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.
The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous
When accountability isn't a parent's practice, the burden of responsibility falls on the child's shoulders to do so for both- And be blamed for their personal failures as well as the failures that their parents deflect and refuse to embrace-
Oh! You Pretty Things ? (wherever you may be ..)
But if, not but it .. ?
HolyHannah, I continue to abide by what if, to contemplate other outcomes, to stretch my imagination- BUT when someone dies, opportunities cease- But it simply no longer "is"-
The jankie, untamed bags are mine- They're claimed- Off the carousel- Some inherited, some of my own making- No refunds, no returns, no exchanges -- especially after the bequeather is dead-
rosecarmel -- "HolyHannah, I appreciate your positive assessment- It's diplomatic and compassionate as well as reassuring- And healthy- (my personal experience lands towards the more negative end of the spectrum)" -- Mine as well, however aka known as "but" (and but usually means 'ignore what I said before') but I can 'explain' my "but"...
My 'mom' and her fellow abusers/enablers inadvertently taught me many lessons... Mostly about who I did not want to be as a 'human' and the fact that I would have been happiest being my authentic Vulcan/Autistic self (because I could not 'relate' to THEM even as a minor child) is not lost on me as an adult and certainly aided my recovery... Anyways...
I always start with the "best case scenario" given the information/facts/words/'evidence' I have at hand/available. My 'mom' would start with the "worst case" which was sometimes/even often "correct".
And there's the 'issue' I have with many people and it works worse when dealing with someone like my 'mom'. Because her unhealthy thinking was often accurate (because she could 'see' how other unhealthy/manipulators were thinking/behaving) she believes EVERYONE 'thinks' as she does...
I never did and still do not because I see "things" from a different window. My window has 'spots' but is not universally clouded... I always ask, "What IF that 'best case' is at play? What if, as ridiculous as the story I am hearing is, IS the truth?" My 'mom' would never even GET to thinking about the "best case" because she went straight to the worst and even if someone presented evidence to counter the worst case?
Why would she "waste her time" hearing 'stuff'/listening to the "other side" that isn't going to alter her POV anyways after she has taken all that 'time'/effort to find all the reasons You (the other side) is wrong?
In Our home We have the... "But what IF rule." -- That rule is based on life experiences and education. One of the best examples I can think of was on a TV program where custom agents were looking at a traveler and their baggage.
The person had multiple travel bags so the agent asked all the standard questions... "Are all these bag yours? Did you pack them yourself/know what is in them?" and the traveler said, "Yes." to all the questions.
The agent then started to search the bags and started with a blue suitcase tied with neon green twine. The agent hadn't found anything of interest before the traveler said, "That's not my mine." The agent was reasonably/justifiably confused because the traveler had said all the bags were his.
Since nothing illicit was found in the suitcase the traveler now claimed was NOT his the agent was more confused. Why would this guy "change his mind" and say the bag was not his when the bag was very distinctive? So the agent employed my philosophy and went out to recheck the baggage carrousel and there, beyond all odds, was another blue suitcase with neon green rope...
So the agent took that bag back to the traveler and after it was opened he was happy to say, "That is my suitcase."
P.S. I know the "reversal" on that scenario and an abuser would let the search of someone else's "baggage" continue unless/until something 'bad' was found and THEN they would claim, "That bag is not mine!!!" Which of course is the truth/reality but it's not because they did anything morally correct, like declaring it/that as soon as they realized their error/that the bag was not theirs...
They'd rather the agent digs through somebody else's 'luggage'/deflects from what THEY are carrying/doing then admit/own anything.
HolyHannah, I appreciate your positive assessment- It's diplomatic and compassionate as well as reassuring- And healthy- (my personal experience lands towards the more negative end of the spectrum)
And yet .. it's possible for the mother of such a "loving family" to make a decision, according to her interpretation of the law, that would threaten the lives as well as the health of millions in every age group while burying the rest under the financial burden of medical bills-
Whoops wrong thread, long day
I don't think there is a perfect family anyway so I suppose it is all about where an individual draws the line on what constitutes a good family.
If I draw my line here
My mum drew here line there
Then an effort needed to be made to meet in the middle so that both of us could feel happy and comfortable in the relationship.
I drew my line and explained why I wanted that line moved. My mum drew her line and said my line wasn't a problem, imagined, all in my head and also she never crossed any line at all anyway but the line wasn't ever going to move an inch.
Hense.... Estrangement.
rosecarmel -- "All things considered, what do you think about that?" -- That's a darn good question. And there are a lot of possible answers from my POV...
I have had only small interactions with DS children and families that have a child(ren) with more physically identifiable disabilities like DS.
So, since I always start with the most positive and work downward, there is actually situations where a "favorite child" in a family can be a good thing.
I don't know what the technical/psychological terminology is but it's along the lines of a "unifying child"/a child born into a family that everyone in the family identifies with/understands/accepts unconditionally. That child and everyone loving it can bring all the family closer together because they have a common understanding that the DS child (or other differently abled child) is still a part of the family. That can inspire better/more empathetic behavior from that family because they want everyone to be loved/respected regardless of abilities or challenges just like they love their 'special' family member.
Today in her opening statement during the hearing of her confirmation for Supreme Court (to fill Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's seat) , Amy Coney Barrett shared that her youngest child with Down's Syndrome is the family favorite-
All things considered, what do you think about that?
rosecarmel -- I have looked into some of Brene Brown's materials and she is doing amazing work. However, as you said, Golden abuse is different from Scapegoat abuse and so are the after-effects.
Scapegoats are the bottom feeders... To get healthy we have to drag ourselves upwards, learn that we are worthy of equal respect, learn to love ourselves etc. The poor Golden has to learn that they are imperfect/the same as the Scapegoats they were taught they are better then.
I do want to be clear... It is no more the Golden's fault that they are that way then the Scapegoat. The abusive parent is making the 'rules'/deciding those 'roles'. The 'role' the Golden's get is "better" which is why they generally don't estrange and can even turn hostile/abusive toward the parent(s).
Scapegoats go No Contact because they know "their place" and there's no changing it/the dysfunctional family sooo...
That should read HolyHannah, not HolyHanna- My apologies-
Adding to HolyHanna's information on shame, Brene Brown has extensively researched shame and offers accessible insight regarding its psychological impact on behavior- Her findings have helped me immensely, to dig deeper to the roots of issues- She's also quite funny and transparently shares her own psychological struggles being a golden child-
"Trying to explain it to the head messers themselves is a thoroughly pointless exercise lol"
I didn't achieve my desired outcome but don't regret making attempts- Knowing I made the effort is cathartic and that catharsis helped me to move forward toward understanding and then forgiveness-
When I reflect, I still get pissed off .. naturally .. But it passes-
www.naturalchild.org/articles/robin_grille/good_children.html
"Children behave as well as they are treated." -- Is the whole theme of the article. It's a great read on toxic shame.
Honestly, I think it is hard enough to explain to a regular person with a balanced childhood the mess these people made of our heads... Trying to explain it to the head messers themselves is a thoroughly pointless exercise lol
All I would get is "there is something wrong with you Star" and no one thought to ask, why there might be something "wrong" with me. Just I am wrong, they are right, let's leave it at that.
"I know it's not "all in my head"
HolyHannah, I'm convinced that unless people look inward nothing will make sense- The onus will always be on someone else and not them- Never knowing what's in their own heads no less anyone elses-
Exhibit 1:
If my mother didn't know about something, take your pick, that I wanted to learn about or try, she wouldn't make any effort to support that interest- She'd "bad juju" it until I lost confidence and interest- And that's just one piece of evidence-
She screwed me up six ways to Sunday- But I never would have caught wind that she did unless I looked inward, into my own head and figure out what "she" put in it and then learn how to take .. "it" .. the fuck out- And then begin the task of understanding why she put shit in my head in order to hold her accountable and eventually have empathy and compassion for the circumstances that led her to put shit in my head to begin with- And forgive her-
Baby Talk
My dad used to call me 'bubby' all the time - even as an adult. Every other point also described him perfectly
rosecarmel -- "Sometimes people have an aggressive disposition and seek out something to "battle" about out habit rather than conviction- They aren't defending anyone else or any principle, they're protecting what they refuse to admit-"
That's very profound and goes to my previous post...
My 'mom' would absolutely refuse to admit that she wasn't willing to be accountable for things/situations etc. that, well maybe not 100% within her ability to "control", were ZERO percent within MY ability to "control".
And back to the example of the cars breaking, since it was always "my fault" when something bad happened or I pointed out when something "bad" (like the car breaking) was probably going to happen... My next 'counter move' to try to stop being blamed was to NOT say when I heard the car making "bad noises"...
Oh yes... All the abuse victims know what happens next...
Eventually the car would make enough noise that the adults could hear it... And them knowing that I always heard the sounds of failure first would ask, "Did you hear it??? Did you know it was breaking???"
And always honest Me (I couldn't 'get away' with lying so I always told the truth and still do -- although that is also the Autism) and would say, "Yes." and now for the punch-line...
"Why didn't YOU say anything!!!!" I was into my teens by then and while I had an answer I had learned there's honest and then there's TOO MUCH honest.
The "too much honest" I wanted to say was, "Have you not noticed by now that regardless of what choices are put in front of Me I always pick the one I think is morally/logically "right". When I do 'that' and don't get the reaction I hope for/want then I try a different approach the next time, with the same purpose in mind? Like to stop everyone getting angry with/hurting/punishing Me for things out of My control (stuff that IS within your Adult "control")... Have you ever noticed that regardless of what decision/path I 'choose' it always leads to, "It's ALL Hannah's fault!!!" because I HAVE."
That is my Scapegoat life...
pro.psychcentral.com/exhausted-woman/2018/06/shame-based-parenting-a-narcissists-specialty/
There is so much in this one... Some highlights:
Exaggerating Faults. Within a narcissistic mind, no one is perfect except for them. Narcissists are very good at identifying the faults of their children and even better at passively aggressively commenting on them. This is a way of putting their child ‘in their place.’ When confronted, they often say, “I was only joking,” or simply claim that their child “can’t take a joke.” Writing it off as something the child could not maturely handle only highlights the dominating qualities of the parent.
Victim Card. Narcissists are talented at exasperating their child and then using their poor reaction as justification for identifying themselves as the victim. Regardless of how aggressively the narcissist incited the child, an angry reaction to the provocation is viewed as shameful.
Blame Shifting. Whenever something goes wrong, the narcissist shifts all blame to the child.
With power and control (like the responsibility of parenting) means the parent must accept accountability for the things THEY "control" which is almost everything.
This goes back to what I said about 'car problems' at our house. If the car is breaking down, get it fixed, you're the adult, have money etc. and I can't drive it to the shop! Don't like that the car 'breaks'? Buy a 'better' one... I can't go to the auto-mart and buy one.
It's not a wonder this type of abuse leads to C-PTSD and suicidal ideations. What child deserves to bear then entire weight of a 'home' and ALL the 'problems' and have no power to change the dynamic?
Baby Talk. In any narcissistic parent-child relationship, the narcissist wants to be seen as the adult regardless of how much their child might have aged. To achieve this, they belittle in condescending ways such as literally talking down towards the child, calling their adult child immature and saying their adult child needs to grow up. The implication is that the narcissist is more mature and has developed beyond the level of the child. This is a tactic used by the parent to maintain superiority despite the status their child has obtained.
Talking Above. "Even if the child is more intelligent, the narcissist talks in circles with an air of authority to force the child into an inferior position." -- How many times do I have to say, "Nobody but the people living in the 'home' know what goes on behind 'closed doors'. Behind those doors only the children get to decide if the parent is abusive. Nobody knows with ANY CERTAINTY that a friend/neighbor/colleague or even another family member isn't abusing their child unless you are all living together and even then, one member (the Scapegoat) can be abused and nobody else 'see' it."
The above is my life described and since people now write articles on the topic I know it's not "all in my head".
Hi all - we just wanted to pop on and remind everyone that Gransnet is an inclusive forum for all, and that every contribution (so long as it abides by our guidelines) is valued. 
We know these threads can be sensitive, but personal disagreements amongst users should be kept off threads, as they are not helpful in supporting those dealing with estrangement.
Thanks for reading.
Yes that's spot on rosecarmel.
Smileless2012
*Most people assemble peacefully - Others choose to riot*
It's possible to be combative and defend others without the need to riot with the often consequences of violence, the destruction of other peoples' property and looting.
As for those who chose to riot, only though they know if it's to express the "language of the unheard" or a perceived opportunity to break the law.
Sometimes people have an aggressive disposition and seek out something to "battle" about out habit rather than conviction- They aren't defending anyone else or any principle, they're protecting what they refuse to admit-
Sometimes there are "sides" because there are injustices/issues and healthy people denounce those on their side who engage in negative behaviour while still having empathy and understanding for the pain that is underneath as those two concepts are not mutually exclusive. The expectation is an end result of equality/no sides at all.
Sometimes there are "sides" like those abusive people/family systems engage in, where you are either on their side and any negative behaviour you engage in is ignored/overlooked or you are the enemy/scapegoat forever.... which is unhealthy thinking.
Starblaze, such is the case with perception- Sometimes people attempt to speak truth to power without ever having step foot closer to their own truth- So can't own it-
The best they can do is throw stones -- and with practice, push boulders .. like Sisyphus ..
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