What EP's need to hear from a fellow Estranged Parent.

Madgran, all families have dysfunction in them somewhere, all members of the family might not be aware of it

I didn't say that families don't have dysfunction. I said that dysfunction is not always the cause of estrangement.

A good point Pantglas I have worked hard to undo the damage done to me by my abuser, who was not my father, and I ensured with Mr. S.'s support that our children were never affected or influenced by it.

No you haven't Yennifer I've said I was abused as a child, I haven't said who my abuser was or what form that abuse took, but for the record it was not my father.

Yes, there was dysfunction in my family but our nuclear family unit ie myself, Mr. S. and our boys was not a dysfunctional unit and is not how our son ended up with a dysfunctional wife.

There are numerous examples of perfectly healthy AC/parent relationships being completely undermined and eventually destroyed by the introduction of a third party.

Like Madgran "I quite simply cannot understand why the point about acknowledging the differences in estrangement circumstances appears so impossible".

I accept that dysfunction within a family can cause estrangement, why on earth can't you accept that it isn't always the case?
It's very sad that dysfunction was passed down to you but it was not passed down to our boys.

Why do you Yennifer think that you’ve worked hard to undo the damage your parent/s did to you but that smileless (or indeed anyone) hasn’t?

Madgran, all families have dysfunction in them somewhere, all members of the family might not be aware of it, like sexual abuse, physical abuse and emotional abuse is often hidden but all families have it. Lots of adults forget to hide dysfunction from little children not realising they are always listening to arguments, stress and worry, that they are always watching how adults treat them and each other. I've seen Smileless2012 say that her father was abusive so we know there is dysfunction in her family for example and most families, dysfunction gets passed down without people even aware of it. It was passed down to me and I had to work very hard to undo it x

Yennifer "I think, and I am going to say this as kindly as I possibly can, there are EC all saying in one way or another that this family dysfunction causes estrangement

But that is exactly the point Yennifer …..SOME EPs are NOT arguing with the point you make. SOME EPs are most definitely NOT saying that that family dysfunction does NOT cause estrangement. Some ARE trying hard though to make the point that it is NOT a given that ALL estrangements are caused by family dysfunction.!

Yennifer "If EPs can't listen and just want to look for ways to shut us up and excuses to null and void what we are saying as not true, is it possible that your own AC either gave up trying to explain themselves or simply walked away because they have learnt that their EPs just can't see their pain because that pain comes with a frustration that is turned against them? If so that's horribly sad for whole families x"

"...if SOME EPs can't listen...…" absolutely correct what you say Yennifer. But if SOME EACs can't listen to the possibility that an estrangement MAY not be because of a dysfunctional childhood then the same point applies!

I quite simply cannot understand why the point about acknowledging the differences in estrangement circumstances appears so impossible ...and I am talking from very clear experience of working with so many different families and situations and causes...and I know that there are common threads across SOME/MANY estrangements but not ALL. And clear and serious family dysfunction is SOMETIMES a clear cause. SOMETIMES it is other things that are very clearly a cause!

Plus, once again the holding up a cracked mirror applies and I would expect anyone who has experienced counselling/therapy would understand at some level the fact that people at different stages of a painful journey need different mirrors.

I think, and I am going to say this as kindly as I possibly can, there are EC all saying in one way or another that this family dysfunction causes estrangement. If EPs can't listen and just want to look for ways to shut us up and excuses to null and void what we are saying as not true, is it possible that your own AC either gave up trying to explain themselves or simply walked away because they have learnt that their EPs just can't see their pain because that pain comes with a frustration that is turned against them? If so that's horribly sad for whole families x

No, it isn't the truth so you "can believe whatever you want around that point but it won't change the truth* and you do so because it suits your personal agenda to see all EP's as being responsible for their estrangements.

I haven't seen anyone deny that Yennifer received a personal attack.

Telling an EP that their AC who has become involved in a dysfunctional/abusive relationship, that they've done so because they were raised in a dysfunctional family, "isn't pointing out inconsistencies and questionable tones of some comments" it's personally attacking that EP and any whose experience is the same.

The only person I see here comparing apples to oranges is you HolHannah. One rule for EAC and another for EP's.

Yennifer -- Some like to compare apples to oranges. People did personally attack you and that is somehow the same as pointing out inconsistencies and questionable tones of some comments. Hint -- It's not.

"I refute 'facts' that aren't facts for example only someone raised in a dysfunctional family finds themselves in a dysfunctional relationship."

Except that is the truth. If you are raised in dysfunction that is your 'normal'. Until someone sees that the behavior is anything but, they will continue to make the same bad choices whether they recognize it or not.

That's what abuse and dysfunction is. A whole heaping bunch of denial. So you can believe whatever you want around that point but it won't change the truth.

It suggests I use my common sense rosecarmel. I don't presume to know in detail the intimate details of the lives of people who post, and then put myself in the position of judge and jury.

I don't expect everyone to see things as I do, nor do I expect to be in total agreement with others.

I refute 'facts' that aren't facts for example only someone raised in a dysfunctional family finds themselves in a dysfunctional relationship.

I refute the assumptions that all EP's are accountable for their estrangements when they're not. I know that to be a fact because we aren't.

Many posters have been on the receiving end of inappropriate and hurtful comments from both 'sides' of estrangement Yennifer, some of them extremely personal; 'I can see why you've been estranged' for example is one I've had here on GN on more than one occassion.

I remember your post about being forced to eat carrots as a child and I remember responding with kindness and understanding.

Not really wanting to go with the nobody is perfect and everyone is responsible for x y z" thing. Rather people were held accountable for their own words and actions individually as its not helpful otherwise and I never got any apologies or anyone pulled up because of the group mentality aspect. Also some people just are blunt and bluntness doesn't always mean unkindness. What I experienced was very personal unkindness. Not a general one x

""No one on GN is an 'expert' on estrangement and any expert worth their salt knows that each case is different""

That suggests you know what experts know and they see things as you do-

Yennifer I do remember comments made to you, I also remember highly inappropriate comments made to others. None are justified in the name of shattered mirrors or any other reason.

Yennifer I made the point that how we post applied to everyone in any group and to whoever they were posting. I am not talking about EPs or ECs or any other group. I am talking about the responsibility of EVERY poster!

That's what Madgran is talking about Yennifer. There's no need for anyone to to abusive, insensitive and cruel. Making generalisations and assumptions and being unable or unwilling to see another's point of view.

We don't have to agree but we can disagree respectfully. No one on GN is an 'expert' on estrangement and any expert worth their salt knows that each case is different.

ECs here know that this is multilayered, that parents are being broken and passing on that dysfunction. That it didn't start with our parents. It just ended with us or at least definitely got slowed down because no EC here has ever said they were innocent of bringing problems to their own loved ones at times. Is it really parent blaming or dysfunction blaming?

An excellent post Madgran.

Madgran I get what you are saying but you remember all the nasty comments aimed at me, the laughing, the people who appeared and said that the only excuse for estrangement was "murder" or something as terrible or that I should go reconsile without knowing my story. People who said that these threads weren't for me as an EC, just for grandparents and EPs. Nobody has to answer threads do they? I've only been attacked on threads for ECs by ECs where ECs are speaking their truth. No one had to do that to defend themselves or their own personal stories, they wanted to hurt me x

I think there is a responsibility if engaging in forums such as this and responding to people who have shared their pain and their story, to express oneself honestly, be constructively critical, to suggest things for people to consider which might be painful for them, but to always do it in a way that is not accusatory. Possibilities can be suggested for consideration without cutting someone with the mirror! I apply that to all posters, whatever "group" they may be in.

Therapy and Counselling supports people to come to their own conclusions about their situation and people drawing their own conclusions is the best form of learning and channel for change.

Reading peoples stories can make us draw conclusions and make assumptions but how we express those is crucial in helping each other to consider our situations and to learn. The way the original article is written is a perfect example of very well expressed, non accusatory but strongly described reality!

The original article is also powerful and is also a perfect example of someone who has been through a process of having a mirror held up to consider her own accountability in the situation she and her family have found themselves. The point is the mirror was clear enough for her, did not cut her so badly that it made her step away again, she kept on looking, she hurt but she coped and she learned. The writer acknowledges that her readers may not be there yet, and that is ok ....that people are on different stages of a journey. We are all at different stages aren't we.

Sometimes the mirrors being held up to others on this virtual forum are so cracked, sharp and jagged that posters who have shared their story cannot look at the reflection in any meaningful way. What is the point of that mirror??

Ofcourse, I suppose how one posts also depends on ones motivation for posting atall . Is it to help other posters to look at their situation, is it to just tell someone ones story, is it to get rid of ones own anger , is it to find out more, is it to share knowledge and expertise that might be useful to others, is it to share pain, to talk to others with similar experiences, to get attention? Who knows, I expect we all have different motivations.

But I think whatever our motivations, we all have the same responsibility on how we post. And to never pick up a smashed, cracked jagged mirror, hold it up and then hold it up again and again, when the person being reflected is just being cut to shreds and learning nothing!!! If they cant see the reflection, shouting louder, waving the mirror harder wont work,; the mirror needs polishing! They need help to notice a tiny corner of the mirror where a bit of them is reflected!!

Yennifer and rosecarmel -- Issendai has been quoted many times on the "how to deliver a message to parents the 'right way'." and her conclusion on the way to deliver messages contrary what the parent wants to hear is to, "Never say 'it' at all."

There is no "delivery method" that 'works'. It's like the 11 page explanation letter... "ALL lies." Not one single point of truth... I would think like a broken clock, an 11 page letter was correct at least twice. And of course that doesn't demonstrate black and white thinking. "There is one (or more) points I disagree with." now becomes, "It's ALL lies."

And then the chorus of other EP's, "I got an 'all lie' letter too! They exist!" Me -- "That's interesting since most EP's claim all estrangement situations are different and yet on your end there is consistency in reviving the 'all lie letter'. When I point out the consistency with which EP's get a letter and call it "all lies" as opposed to, "I got a letter and my 'child' had some valid points..." it is ignored."

Dysfunctional thinkers shift standards all the time. Just like there are 'rules' for betters and lessers. And because I truly understand 'both sides' I continue to wrestle with do they "know" what they do/how they behave?

www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/matter-personality/201411/parents-cut-adult-children-clueless

As for being accused of "parent bashing" Estranged Parents or not understanding their pain etc.

I absolutely feel for the EP who wrote the article. I choked up reading what she said. If ever an EP must be hurting, it must be the EP like her that 'gets' she was the author of her family story and her child didn't "like the book".

Her realization that, while the steps she needed to take were difficult, they were steps toward healthier thinking and any hope of reconciliation. It is far easier to move from, "I think I am a worthless/useless person." like I did then, "I'm a great and wonderful parent! I loved my kids and did my best!" to, "I might have thought I was doing well, but my child, the only one who can truly evaluate my parenting, disagrees."

Her shift of thinking is a much more difficult challenge then my journey and she deserves credit for being a unicorn. Even other EP's discredit her because she isn't agreeing with their dysfunctional thinking.

I was a bit cross when I first came to gransnet but lately very calm and settled, I've learnt a lot here from all the information posted x

Yes I do see what you mean rosecarmel. Also everyone is under a lot of stress these days x

I agree about the article Yennifer but some of the responses on this thread have been far from gentle.