What EP's need to hear from a fellow Estranged Parent.

The article is gentle - But no matter the presentation of the same information, it appears the response to it will also remain the same, no matter how the response is presented-

I thought the article was very gentle? Did I miss something? x

Exactly Madgran.

Disagreeing with what is said isn't the same as not listening. You have to have listened to know what you're disagreeing with.

The way things are pointed out makes a big difference!

By child and adult alike ..

Yennifer, I'm certain your service is appreciated-

Unhappy Parent -- "After visit with gd I started getting a runny nose and not feeling to good so texted es to check on their house he said fine , a few more days passed and today he texted asking if the mall i worked at was closed , I responded no only hours changed and how were he and the family…he responded ok. Then something came over me and I texted back I am ok too thanks for asking!!! I know he doesnt care how i am but i did it anyway"

That is the sort of things some parents do and then they don't get why their behavior drives their Adult Children away. Whatever the 'parents' do is justified and excusable. She could have chosen a mature and rational reaction, like none at all... Instead she created drama. If she keeps going down that road, next she'll be complaining because she's not allowed to see her grand-child. But she didn't do anything wrong...

"I have seen the flip side of when AC won't be Adults but wish to be "Persecutors" who can now severely punish their parents." -- Reaping what was sown... The parents planted the dysfunctional seed and got a monster that destroyed their home. Now they are complaining about being 'homeless'.

Asking that parents be held accountable is not "parent bashing". And if it is, then perhaps parents should stop 'bashing' AC who are explaining, "You may SAY you have 'listened and apologized etc' but given all the other dysfunctional thought process I see in these comments, I doubt that that is the case."

If some can't handle myself and others' pointing out dysfunctional thinking without actually reflecting, how likely is it you'll 'listen' when your own child tries to broach sensitive topics?

rosecarmel, schools close Friday but will stay open for children of key workers like NHS staff, police and people in food shops etc. We will also be open for children whose families are under social services because we are a safe space for those children too and at the front line of protecting children from harm from abusive parents x

""Oh and just for balance I have also worked with parents and AC who have resolved and reconciled. Not easy for anyone but very worthwhile.""

Agree-

Yennifer, I can't imagine-

I work with children and I can spot problems at home very easily! So many parents aren't aware of how much stress and anxiety little children go through. The very large upsurge of anxious, angry and stressed out children I had on my hands today was very upsetting x

""I have seen the flip side of when AC won't be Adults but wish to be "Persecutors" who can now severely punish their parents. ""

I agree- After all avenues have been exhausted by the parent, a child's position can remain immovable- The point is that the parent had reason to exhaust all avenues to begin with- And then did so because it was their responsibility to do so-

It isn't a flip side- It's just one possible outcome-

allsortsofbags Two excellent posts.

I too have considerable experience of working with families/parents/children/AC and you express very well the considerations on all sides of these relationships.

Thankyou

Smileless A good point in your last post

Persecutor is how it feels to me. I agree @allsortsofbags and @smileless2012 great posts.

It's good to know that you've found a way forward with your relationship with your D allsortsofbags and she is both willing and able to apply adult understanding to her own situation as well as yours and your DH's.

An excellent second post.

I was thinking today about a conversation we had with our boys when they were both younger, about not talking to strangers, going off with someone they didn't know etc.

It's difficult to try and help them to keep themselves safe without frightening them and giving them nightmares. We told them that not everyone's nice and our youngest, who we are now estranged from said 'oh you mean like the child catcher in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang'.

We said yes like him but he looks mean and a bit scary but not everyone does, so you can't tell just by looking at someone.

Adult abusers ensnare their future partner/husband/wife by appearing 'normal', and often their future partners' family too.
Coercive control and manipulation doesn't happen over night, it takes time. The gradual erosion of the 'victims' other relationships with family and friends through lies is a primary factor.

Abusers isolate their 'victim' from those they perceive as a threat to their ultimate goal. They don't want anyone to see what they're doing and alert their victim to what's really going on.

So it's ridiculous to assume that an adult who was raised in a functional and non abusive family will always be able to recognise dysfunction and abusive tendencies, so those that find themselves coerced must have been raised by dysfunctional and abusive parents.

Oh and just for balance I have also worked with parents and AC who have resolved and reconciled. Not easy for anyone but very worthwhile.

I don't think I said anything about human beings being Dysfunctional or Not being Dysfunctional.

What I said was getting into an abusive relationship happens all too easily.

If you doubt that spend some time in a Women's Refuge or on their Help Line.

Of course if we are lucky enough to get through our own childhood unscathed and emerge as perfect young adults with all our parenting skill well honed we are ahead in the parenting stakes.

Then if we are "Emotionally Intelligent" enough we will be sure to pick a life partner and future parent for our children who also managed the feat of getting through their childhood unscathed with all their parenting skill well honed we really are on to a winner.

Life will be perfect and our children will never have anything to complain about.

It's not like that.

If that were the case there would be an awful lot of damaged single people and not as many children as there wouldn't have been as many relationships because we would all have avoided those pit falls.

And what do we do when we have a 'Good Enough" life partner/co-parent and something happens that changes them? Or changes us. Who do we Bash then???

Which parent do we allow the child to bash and blame then?

The one that's changed by illness, life events, accidents or the parent that's left to pick up the pieces and do their best to hold it all together?

Do we "blame" that parent because they couldn't deliver life to the child the way it was?

I never said we as parents shouldn't apologise, of course we should.

If we want our relationship with our children to be a respectful one we should listen and hear. Then be sorry, say sorry for where we got it wrong.

We need to change what can be changed and make such reparation as is possible to our children.

But as humans we get things wrong, we have issues, PTSD, stress, illness, accidents, unhelpful behaviours sometimes out and out bad parenting patterns.

If we care we will be willing to find and own our failings.

But our children, when they are Adult Children "May Be" need to acknowledge that as wrong as we got it we did the best we could with what we had at the time.

We as human beings and parents can not live up to a child's "Fantasy Parent" and some times our human self isn't good enough for the child.

Some AC never allow their real human parent be good enough.

That is one of the choices some Adult Children make.

It hurts when that is the AC choice.

It really hurts when all the Listening, Hearing, Apologies and ways to change have been gone though by the parents and STLL the Adult Child chooses to keep the Estrangement in place.

None of this is about abrogation responsibility.

Nor is it about parents taking the stance that as the parent (one up position) and their child (one down position) treating you anyway I want and you (child) and have to lump it.

That's as damaging as Adult Children Not being will to accept that their parents are humans first and as humans we get things wrong.

I will Not accept that ALL the FAUT and BLAME MUST ALWAYS be on the shoulder of the parent.

Just to clarify, I am not in this position. DD2's estrangement lasted less that a year and that was over 10 years ago. We have never been estranged from DD1 SIL or DGD, separated when they lived in NZ but always in contact.

My passion for this subject is because I have worked with some very willing parents and their AC.

I have seen the flip side of when AC won't be Adults but wish to be "Persecutors" who can now severely punish their parents.

Adult Children make choices too.

I am forever grateful that I am now retired, from clinical work, from tutoring and from volunteering because there are some people I just want to tell to "Get Real".

So for all of you living with this very painful situation you have my Empathy and some of you have my Sympathy and Compassion. May your situation resolve or you find a kind of peace that helps you deal with life.

One more question:

Why aren't estranged children bashing the parent that wrote the article?

"The thread is about estrangement."

The article is about accountability-

Smileless pointed out that it can take years for the impacts of past traumas to manifest- Defensiveness is on the list of manifestations and first on the list in the article-

Addicts are encouraged to take responsibility for their own actions on their path to recovery- If one were to consider defensiveness a drug, who would be responsible to overcome it? The parent or their child that estranged them?

We used to argue a lot when our older kids were little. Both come from abusive childhoods. We have worked hard to heal ourselves and our marriage is very strong now. Never any raised voices. Will undoing the damage to ourselves and our relationship undo our children's hurt from that time that we didn't understand we were doing? I hope so but I know if not then it's our fault. My kids grew up for a long time with me tolerating abusive behaviour from mother I didn't understand was abusive or the problems it ws causing. Our kids are turning into decent adults one by one, no anxiety or depression or other visible issues. So I hope so but if there are issues, it's our fault and our responsibility to fix it. No one is born broken x

Estranged Parents are not experts on estrangement, they are experts at being estranged.

EP -- ""I’m sure many of you here like me have gone on to websites or read books on reconciliation. I’ve read online stories written by therapists who have dealt with adult children who’ve estranged from their parents. I’ve read stories of therapists who had adult children who had estranged from them. Everything I read says the same thing. If there is going to be reconciliation with a child who has estranged from you, you the parent have to make the first move and the first step is to apologize. Even if you don’t feel you’ve done anything wrong, supposedly you have done something wrong to hurt your child otherwise they wouldn’t go no contact with you. I’m simply amazed that with the exception of this wonderful forum, that is always the answer given for reconciliation."

So other then a bunch of EP's in isolation, EVERYONE says, "You need to listen without defending yourself hear and acknowledge your child's pain and apologize sincerely for hurt you caused them, otherwise reconciliation is not possible." and yet most EP's scream that THAT is not the way... And they remain estranged.

mylittlecorneroflife.com/2020/03/02/estrangement-professionals-experts-stop-it/

EP's are 'right' and everyone else is 'wrong'.

Common sense post allsortsofbags.

Also getting into in a relationship with an abusive partner happens all too easily.

I respectfully disagree.
Getting into in a relationship with an abusive partner happens all too easily - to a dysfunctional individual.

A healthy individual on meeting an abusive partner will dump them straight away.

Again the hostility toward posts of well know mental health facts because they are inconvenient to your narrative of "it take two".

The AC will: cave in, or go no contact against this utter denial - the only the choice, for them, to put up, or, shut up.

Dysfunctional families never accept responsibility.

Dysfunctional families keep secrets.

Dysfunctional families argue. All the time. About everything.

Dysfunctional families treat children like adults.

Dysfunctional families are breeding grounds for abuse.

If you and your spouse fight with one another in front of your kids using fists or words or both — that is emotional abuse.

If you withhold love from your children because you are too self-absorbed to spend time with them — that is emotional abuse.

Children can suffer from all sorts of different mental health issues, from mild depression and anxiety all the way up to acute psychosis. Adults, of course, can suffer from these problems as well. The difference is that a child’s mental health problems are almost always a reflection of the dysfunction in which they live.

This...
medium.com/the-mission/here-are-5-unbelievably-toxic-things-good-parents-never-do-1fc3477657c

After all is said and done, if you are a parent who has been put off by your child's therapist holding you accountable in any way, please keep in mind that the purpose of accountability is not to judge you, but to help you recognize your personal power and influence as a parent.

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/promoting-empathy-your-teen/201407/when-parents-blame-their-children

I've only read the first 2 pages so apologies if this has already been mentioned but I'm not liking some of the "Blame" that is creeping in here.

I am not estranged from my AC or DGD but I was from DD2 for a while, it's awful and hurt like hell.

We reconciled when she decided to end her marriage and when it all shook down we did have some things to talk about.

Biggest one was how stressful she found it with her dad being in Gulf War 1 and how he was different towards her after that. She felt abandoned by him - psychologically she was - and her boyfriend then husband found all the buttons to press (her words). She was understanding as a Child. Now she is willing to apply Adult understanding to her and our situation - we are very, very lucky. She still feels the abandonment but there is no 'blame"

Other factors (FACTS) it worth considering ...

1) any child is a combination of both parents so may be there is the possibility that the EAC"s thinking, feeling MH, behaviours etc are influenced by inherited traits as well as learned behaviour and childhood trauma?

After all we accept we as parents come with inherited as well as learned behaviour that affects our children. We can always be the parent our children want.

2) Straight Transactional Analysis but here's an other factor (Fact) for consideration ...

When we humans are in a difficult, traumatic, abusive situation we most probably we won't be in our "ADULT" (A) ego state or even are "PARENT" (P) ego state. The 2 grown up ego states with lots of information, strength and problem solving abilities etc.

So irrespective of how old we are, who we are responsible for, what we are required to "DO" in a painful, stressful, dangerous situation "We" are most likely in our "CHILD" (C) ego state.

Therefore, we can only do the best we can AT THAT TIME with what we have available to us.

This is not a cop out, it's a significant factor.

So saying we as parents are "responsible" (we are) for taking care of our children (we are) is one statement (I don't have a problem with).

However lashing out, blaming, shaming and being overly critical of ourselves and others for the parents we were is Not Helpful for Healing.

The people we are today are almost certainly wiser, less stressed, have fewer competing people and things to juggle than the Parents we were when our children were young.

With hindsight, reading, therapy, GN we can see, hear, learn "Where, How we might have been able to "DO" things differently in the HOPE of a better outcome.

We Did the best we could with what we had at the time.

I have NEVER had anyone say "I set out to do the worst job I could at bringing up my children".

So please stop Parent bashing.

Also getting into in a relationship with an abusive partner happens all too easily.

Being in that situation often leaves the outside looking grown-up working from the (C) ego state with only child like options available.

Anyone who gets out of an abusive relationship has already done a massive amount of hard, self work.

Never belittle that FACT.

What the children from that situation are left with varies but everyone is scared and will carry pain. Our children don't have a monopoly on damage, we may have been and still are damaged Children before we were parents.

Truly Adult Children who want to heal will work at accepting that reality. (I don't want to say FACT it's too inflexible and de-humanises us)

I agree that playing the "my pain V your pain game" isn't going to get people very far. However, I don't think it is constructive JUST to lay all the BLAME on EP.

Clearly EP being open to See, Hear, Understand the contribution they made to the estrangement Knowingly or Unknowingly and then be willing to addressing their contribution offers the best chance of reconciliation.

Not all EP are offered that chance even if they have done lots of work and have grown in many ways from the parent the AC cut off.

AC make choices. They may be made from pain. anger, resentment, MH issues or what they have decided is "Best for them".

Sometimes We Never got to fully understand the why's wherefores, the who's. The best we humans can do - is the best we can do and then show some respect for the journey another person is on.

I can understand that Lavazza sometimes silence is preferable when any verbal contact ends up in abuse.