Frightened I will never see her or overcome this block

Thanks all ...it is Scrubs I am making not masks.. bit like loose pyjamas. I am amazed how comfortable they are!! (when trying them on to check that fit is ok)

So that's what you've been up to Madgran; I was beginning to wonder what you were up too. Good for you.

A great post as always.

A good point Namsnanny as you say "there are many paths to healing" and someone choosing a different path doesn't mean that they're wrong for doing so.

and for making masks!

27 April 12.54 rosecarmel … I think that's one way to move on.
But like religion there are many paths to healing, and I wouldn't be so arrogant as to think my way was suitable for all.

I don't see where greed fits into this though?

Madgran … well done for trying

Glad you are still making the masks Madgran I'm thankful my reduced hours after the (very) minor heart surgery have stayed reduced for now but glad to do my part. I really really can't sew.

I have not been on GN for a few days as I am up to my eyes using my recently somewhat underused dressmaking skills(!!) to make NHS scrubs and scrub hats.
Having looked at this thread I cannot believe what it has turned into. How the OP must feel I dread to think! Having nor been involved in this stream of "discussion" some things do strike me though ....
1. Both EAC and EP have been "driven away", for different reasons.
2.I suspect the OP has been driven away on this thread!
3. Not agreeing with another is sometimes interpreted as "invalidation" , sometimes just as disagreement!
4. Disagreement is sometimes interpreted as validation of another's actions when it is actually giving an opinion in a way that might help the OP to listen. Responding on the information given needs care but assuming that information is incorrect is no better and needs care too!!
5. There is considerable unnecessary referencing to other posters as opposed to focusing on the issue being discussed. This inevitably leads to argument because things turn personal
6. Saying something in one thread does not mean that that will be taken as a "given" in another thread. So repeating key things is very important to avoid people understandably wanting to clarify the point being made. At risk of repeating myself, the use of "some EPs", "some EACs", "abusive EPs", "abusive EACs" would hopefully help with that!

Not meaning to sound like a lecture here, just trying to provide a perspective from someone who has not been involved in this discussion atall.

OP I hope you can take something from some of the wise advice given by some posters on this thread.

She isn't to blame-

I would add to greed and self centeredness, bitterness and anger as they too cripple learning and growth. As the saying goes 'misery loves company'.

rosecarmel as usual you say something that helps me just breathe again. Thank you.

At some point, a person has to move through blame in order to move onto accountability- Without doing so, a person maintains not only their cemented status but attracts others to follow the pattern, not like bees to blooms, but to immovable misery for no reasons other than greed and self centeredness which cripple both learning and growth-

Excellent posts namsnanny and Ironflower and thank you both for your support.

I know over the years EP's have stopped posting on GN because of the judgemental and nasty comments they receive, one or two have stayed in touch with me with pm's, but I had no idea that someone had been so badly affected Ironflower; that is truly awful.

I often feel that too namsnanny that "there are people out there watching and waiting for the next victim to pounce on".
Sometimes my heart sinks when I see what a new poster says and wait for the criticism and insensitivity to begin.

As you say Ironflower there are no safe threads for EP's here on GN and there have been times when I wished there were but as I posted previously, if EAC want a 'safe place' where they'll be spared the experiences and opinions of EP's, they should consider sites that are not on a public forum, where only they will post.

There is of course a vast difference between expressing an opposing point of view and experience and the personal abuse of another poster.

You are right Wibby, the key word here is respect. It should be possible to disagree respectfully, without making personal unpleasant comments about another poster, their opinion and without overtly or inadvertently, making a poster feel that their estrangement is entirely of their own making, that they 'deserve' it, and without some thinking they have the right to tell another they can see why they're estranged.

Every estrangement is different, there can be no end of reasons why this has happened in families. Ones experience of the trauma and upset can be easily misread in a post. We all have our own experience in the way we deal with it, yes we all have our own opinions on said matter but it does not help when one keeps getting negative comments thrown at them just because your opinion differs from theirs. I think the key word here is to show "Respect"

I'm sorry for what you went through Ironflower. The response to me was beautiful at first, then I said one "wrong thing" that was a misunderstanding and everything abruptly changed and I was literally hounded. Seen the same happen for someone else I had a lot in common with here who was clearly a very sweet person. Her last message to me she was in a very bad way. Such a shame.

There was a thread for EAC after gransnet advised me to start one because some people just wouldn't leave me alone. I explained that on the thread and was ignored. It should have been common decency.

As I keep saying though is I just want people to follow their own rules. Not one set for estranged parents and one for estranged children.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Namsnanny -- My post that talked about background was in relation to what elana had written on this thread of her situation involving her granddaughter, grandson and daughter.

As far as many people here are concerned, if she takes the 'advice' of some people, she is going to end up fully estranged. My idea/goal is to prevent estrangement and enabling/ignoring/minimizing issues and red flags from people seeking "advice" is not helpful.

"Surely, if you know someones history that gives you the advantage of realising you may be out of your depth and you could choose to back off. Or maybe giving a link to a professional and some kind best wishes."

Those that are headed for estrangement need the truth/a reality check. Simply validating someone, regardless of their attitude or behavior is not healthy and will not have a good outcome. I offered elana what advice I thought best from my perspective of having to walk away from a dysfunctional family.

As Starblaze said, "Why constantly invalidate my perspective? I am entitled to it. I have suffered for the knowledge I have." I agree and I also know how much work I have done to be healthier.

I even had a message sent to me by mistake saying IGNORE STARBLAZE! Like I am some sort of evil in this world for simply trying to get support and help others going through estrangement or reconsiling or even prevent estrangement which would be amazing! If I'm telling someone not to send that birthday card or turn up at a doorstep it's because I know exactly how that is going to make things so much worse.

Rainy random Tuesdays people. Use them.

namsnanny the argument that was reversed meant the same in reverse. Besides that's not how its happening its happening in a "what about me way" which is ridiculous when all EAC here have been seriously abused. Why use reverse arguments at all when the statements we make about our abusive parents are stand alone? I've said "I am only talking about abusive parents" so many times on this forum that it should be written in fire by now. No one should have to justify that when they clearly were abused. Why take so much time and effort to discredit us?

I myself have suffered emotional, physical and sexual abuse as a child. Why constantly invalidate my perspective? I am entitled to it. I have suffered for the knowledge I have.

All I ask is that Smileless follow her own rules and stop policing what we say. Stop speaking for other posters and influencing them against estranged children. That is the origin of most of the arguments here.

Let us give our advice, give your own different advice. Ultimately allow the one receiving the advice to choose for themselves. As I have when told to "reconsile" with the woman who used my sexual abuse to torture me and has shown evidence that she was even aware of it while it was happening. Who made my life a living hell. I have always kindly explained to even those posters why that is just not possible even though it is an incredibly painful thing to say to me.

It really is that simple and as an intelligent appearing person I am amazed you can't see it... Unless you are also carrying bias.

There are many news articles and statistics that show just how many children are abused by the people they depend on most. You have a few of them right here.

I don't know where these children who make up abusive childhoods are hanging out but I haven't suspected one here yet, although I expect they would be somewhere looking for attention, praise and sympathy, just as some abusive parents do. That does go without saying, I just figured it wouldn't get reversed unless I did it myself.

And I didn't reprimend anybody severely by suggesting professional help.
I only stated the obvious - when somebody has suicidal thoughts, the most immediate action is seek medical help.

Plenty of posters on her two suicidal posts also referred her to her gp, suicide hotline or any other resources trained to deal with a severe crisis and/or mental issues.

I read the background of posters, if available, because a post does not give the full picture.

Sorry your feeling black today hopeful1 I'm sure reading all the negative mud slinging isn't doing you or anyone else for that matter, any good.

I've been feeling much as you have, and have just hunkered down for fear of the humiliating attacks that always happen.
We may be better off if we talk on the support thread.

BTW for anyone who is interested, reversing an argument is an accepted way in debating, to show the flaws of a polarised view.
It is meant to point out that particular way of forming the argument does not further the discussion.
There is nothing subversive or twisted about it.

I think the fact that some people become so cross, and lash out illogically when they are challenged in this way, is proof that they know subconsciously that their argument has been proven to be weak in this respect.
But of course they become so heavily invested in their belief they cant afford to change it one iota.

The more they shout someone down and try to ridicule the person in their headlights, the more ineffectual they are at persuading others to listen to them.
But I don't think that's the point for some.

I do wish some posters weren't so insistent on proving their point. So much so that they become blinkered and escalate into aggression and bullying.

I found a post in particular by Hithere sat25th 15.27....

Sally has had 2 suicidal posts on GN in the last 3 months....

She needs professional help, we are not qualified to help her

Astoundingly ironic.

Hithere took the trouble to read the past history of the op(which I find a bit creepy, but perhaps that's just me?) Then knowing something of her fragile state of mind, STILL castigated her with the whys and wherefores of her wrong doings.

What right had she to do so? By her own admission none.
But hey ho, its only someone else's emotional health so who cares!

Then she had the audacity to tell another poster Elana that she needed intensive therapy!!

At best this is misguided and ineffectual at worst it is entitled and narcissistic.
To add insult to injury, she abused Elana by laughing at her in a supposedly jokey sarcastic post. Who was that supposed to help?

This observation also applies to Hollyhanna for her post of
Fri 24th 05.22.....
Given the history you have provided....

Surely, if you know someones history that gives you the advantage of realising you may be out of your depth and you could choose to back off.
Or maybe giving a link to a professional and some kind best wishes.

Motherofdragons … I really don't want to engage with you Smileless as you are one of the most aggressive and argumentative posters on GN

But you couldn't resist, WHY?

I find Smileless dogged under pressure. Which is a good characteristic I think.

The language used to disparage those who disagree with you and make a point of telling you why, is very revealing.
Of course it's nasty and meant to be hurtful, ask yourself why is that necessary?
Why is it so important to you that you be heard over and above other posters?
Who by and large (including Smileless if you bothered to read her replies without bias colouring your judgement) in general agree with some of your points?

For me threads like these always end up becoming contrived.
As if there are people out there watching and waiting for the next victim to pounce on.

Wibby

Pf … well said

People are trying to help her Smileless if they weren't they would be telling her to leave her daughter alone. Stop trying to be some sort of matriarch and just follow your own rules.

They’ve encouraged her to take steps to look at how she can move through her situation.

Support isn’t just saying “yes dear, everyone else is wrong, just keep doing what you’re doing.”

There is no chance of reconciling until she looks into her role. It might not be possible, even then.

Nothing is one sided. No “side” is all good or all bad.

You're welcome.