SUPPORT for all living with the pain of estrangement

Personally Smileless I judge people individually by their own behaviour and I don't lump them into a homogenous mass. I only mention both sides because it is the rhetoric already being used.

We are all individuals and each responsible for our own behaviour. The idea of "sides" as a concept at all does nothing but damage as there is no "winning" or level of righteousness to be had. There is no "right side" to be on. That doesn't exist.

Perhaps you could extend the same courtesy.

However as I think you know, I do not feel comfortable speaking to you and will not be doing so again.

I think it’s sad when estrangement happens (both sides) and people venture onto these threads for information and a kind word from others to be told by some EACs that there is only one reason for it - abuse by the parent.

What is even worse for those of us who went through estrangement and then reconciled, is to be informed by those same EACs that it is not a ‘proper’ reconciliation as it didn’t follow their 5000 steps on bended knee programme!

I mentioned before that each estrangement (and reconciliation for that matter) stands alone, that there can be sympathy for all sides from all of us.

There are numerous examples on the estrangement forum of EAC projecting their own tragic abusive childhood experiences onto EP's. EP's being judged and their 'truth' which is as important to us as EP's, as it is to you as an EAC, being derided.

Two days ago this happened here on this thread, hence the comments that have been made. It is happening elsewhere to the extent that an EAC has voiced her disquiet at the way EP's are treated by some EAC.

Despite numerous requests for this not to continue, it carries on unabated.

Your paragraph that begins "I don't think the problems here are one side or the other" would be better posted on some of the other estrangement threads where what you have outlined is conspicuous by its absence; it is certainly not absent here.

What springs to mind when reading your post is 'Do as I say and not as I do'.

I would just like to point out, as an example:

My talking about abusive parents (having had one) is never an attack on estranged parents. I have strong feelings about child abuse and I am very aware of the damage it does through my training and my own experience. Talking about any of that is not an attack. Often it is a attempt to educate those with open minds about changing knowledge, research and practice.

Estranged children here generally having had abusive parents should not really be a factor when giving advice or pointing out issues. My saying for example "perhaps you should not send a birthday card if you have been asked for no contact" shouldn't be taken as an assertation that I think anyone asking for advice about that or anything else is abusive. It isn't one. It's just using my experience to advise and perhaps prevent more future pain and upset for the person asking.

I would also like to point out that EAC aren't accepted here across the board by all members. I have personally been told I'm wrong or out of order for estranging or I should just get over it. I have also seen EAC laughed at. There is no point denying that happens because it does.

Recently there has been a lot of animosity. I personally have made attempts to avoid that by not engaging in negativity or setting up a thread that was meant to be a safe space for EAC to talk without risking causing offense.

I don't think the problems here are one side or the other. I think effort needs to be made on both sides to actually read comments. Look at the context of the person writing the comment and the context of what they are discussing and where they are discussing it. Allow people the right to relate their experiences to different topics as their experience is who they are and disallowing that is tantamount to telling them to shut up and go away. Respect people's boundaries if they aren't comfortable talking to you and allow them to make that choice. Show empathy and understanding but allow that different people express that differently.

I won't sit here and claim that every comment I ever write in this forum is as perfect as possible or that I do not sometimes react badly to invalidation or attempts to undermine me.

However I will not sit here and take the general EAC blame when I am doing everything in my power as a faliable human being to keep my interactions here positive.

Please take that into consideration in this shared space where we are all welcomed within guidelines.

The weather last night was awful, and not much better this morning. We had a thunderstorm that was very intense and lasted for ages. Glad that we're at our lodge at not in Charlie 2, it's so windy I think our drive away awning might have become a fly away awning.

Thanks Yogagirl, mum's funeral is next week and I think the weather will be a bit better by then.

Well said Smileless Good luck if the funeral is today It looks like a suitable day, cold, dark and raining hard!

It is as you say Sparkling hard to see the constant labeling of all EP's as abusive when childhood abuse is not always the reason for estrangement.

It reflects well on the EP's here on GN that we don't judge all EAC based on the treatment we have received from our own.

Just read my messages again. It makes me feel humble how your support is given even when dealing with problems of your own. Wishing you a peaceful goodnight.

Marg63, Let me assure you, you do have support. Do not let the dreadful comments by someone who says she was abused and automatically assumes all parents are abusers. These comments must be do hard to hear when you are estranged for whatever reason. Adult children can be abusuve to their parents, causing disruption to all of their family, until no one can stand it anymore.
I am sorry for your heartache, please try to make the most of today,who knows what tomorrow will bring. It's hard to refocus when inside your heart aches, but you have no option but to get on with making a life for yourself now, your daughter will get in touch if and when she chooses and not before. This doesn't define you, you are not alone and you will come through.

I'm glad that you are finding the support you receive here of some help Marg. As you rightly point out, not all EAC were abused by their parents and in some cases they are the ones who are abusive.

We all come here for support and not to be condemned but that unfortunately happens when some project their own experiences onto others.

To all who have given me kind words, thank you.

HollyHannah I can understand imposed estrangement by abused AC. As Smileless says every estrangement is different, but some AC who impose estrangement have not been abused. Some AC actually are the abuser and because the AP is so desperate not to lose the relationship they put up with it.
I came on here for support not condemnation.

Petit Fromage I hope that your weekend goes well and that you can all as a family share some happy times for your DHs birthday.

Your post is thoughtful, measured and wise and absolutely acknowledges that The challenge is to try to resolve the issues and move forwards, which also involves looking at ourselves critically and seeing what role we played in the estrangement

That approach and acknowledgement is admirable.

*(Petit Fromage "it causes us pain that they can apparently find it (happiness) without us in their lives."
(Holy Hannah) Why is it "painful" to you/a parent, in any way, if your child is happy?

It is painful because although a parent may be glad that their Adult child is happy they may also miss their Adult child desperately and wish that things were different.

Covid hasn't made any difference to us Nanastrawberry as we've never had the opportunity to know our GC.

Has COVID made you priorize contact with estranged grandchildren OR step back ?

Thank you Smileless and Yoga! Xx

that should have said "and are personal experiences are not the same".

Petitfromage I wish you the best for this coming weekend and hope your H has a wonderful birthday with his Ds&GDs

I can understand your mixed feelings about the forthcoming visit for your DH's birthday PF. Everyone must be feeling the same so I'm keeping everything crossed that it goes well.

As always your posts are thoughtfully and sensitively presented. I too wonder how many EAC are "oblivious to the pain which they cause", and how that can result in some thinking "they can just walk back into our love and our lives when they feel like it".

You say how your D has "broken my trust, caused deep pain and fractured the family"; just as our ES has done and is more often than not, the result of many estrangements.

There's no doubt it took a lot for her to contact you and no doubt, it took a lot for you to begin the process of reconciliation. I am fully aware what it took for our ES to contact me when he learned of my mum's death as well as how hard it was for me to respond.

It's important for everyone who wants to share, give and hopefully receive support about estrangement to recognise that although there are often similarities, no two cases of estrangement, and are personal experiences are the same, especially when there's a history of abuse.

Hannah As I said in my post, everybody's experience is different and, from your posts, it is clear that your own estrangement has brought you and continues to bring you much pain, for which I am genuinely sorry.

But it is not necessarily helpful to project your own experience onto everyone else's. I am not abusive and my DD would never suggest that I am or ever have been, although there has clearly been some failure on my part, which I acknowledge, or we wouldn't find ourselves in this position.

I don't doubt that many AC also feel deep pain and there may be many factors which gave rise to the rift in each case. The challenge is to try to resolve the issues and move forwards, which also involves looking at ourselves critically and seeing what role we played in the estrangement.

Of course I want my DD to be happy and, if you read my comments in context, you will note that the pain arises from feeling rejected and surplus to requirements, which I entirely accept is my issue to deal with, not my DD's.

Finally, I want to be reconciled in my heart with my DD - the DGDs are secondary to me, although I note many GPs seem to feel differently.

PetitFromage -- "it causes us pain that they can apparently find it (happiness) without us in their lives." -- Why is it "painful" to you/a parent, in any way, if your child is happy?

"It seems to me that many adult DC need to have time apart and distance from their parents in order to grow themselves and are oblivious to the pain which they cause." -- Yes. Time apart does allow some to grow and learn that they were "oblivious" to the pain/harm caused to them. So that's why it gets easier to "not care" about the 'pain' of those that inflicted "that" on Us.

"I wonder if DD ever thinks that, or reflects upon the pain she has caused him and the time she has missed. Not that I want her to be caused pain, but I think that when people are young they believe that life is a lot longer and less fragile than it actually is." -- I have mixed feelings on this statement. Until my 'family' cares about Me/anything I may have 'been through', how much should I care about THEIR 'feelings'? The "time missed"? THAT I agree on. Every DAY they paint ME as the issue/'problem' and deny THEIR issues is one more day THEY don't get to be a grand-parent to Our children/their grand-children.

"I suspect that a lot of AC estrange without thinking it through and assuming that they can just walk back into our love and our lives when they feel like it." -- Then You would be wrong by Me and most EAC I have met. Most of US don't feel that there was ANY "love" to begin with. By the time We go No Contact most of Us feel like/realize the 'love' We were given/offered was not love.

"She has broken my trust, she has caused deep pain and fractured the family." -- The turn-around on 'that' is -- "I trusted my 'mom' as any child does honestly/innocently and completely. She abused ME and broke that trust first. SHE was the adult. My 'mom' was an abuser and SHE and her enablers 'broke'/never created a family for Me to belong to. And I am/Your child the one to blame for that dynamic?"

Hello Linda and Marg - I am another who has reconciled so please don't give up hope but, as others have said, do get on with your lives. It seems to me that many adult DC need to have time apart and distance from their parents in order to grow themselves and are oblivious to the pain which they cause.

It is very hard for us to let go of that which we gave birth to; as Pantglas said, although we want their happiness, it causes us pain that they can apparently find it without us in their lives. I think that attitudes often change with maturity and there is a very good chance that your AC will be back in your lives. Just don't put your own lives on hold in the meantime.

Again, as the very wise Pantglas has said, each estrangement is different, although reconciliation can bring its own challenges. Shortly after my reconciliation, my DH was diagnosed with terminal cancer and, as it is his birthday this weekend, DD and her DH and two DDs are coming to visit. It will be the first time she has visited this house since we moved here, over three years ago, although she does live a long way away. Her two sisters will be here, neither of whom she has seen or spoken to for a considerable period of time - in DD2's case it is four years. DD2 is incredibly anxious about the weekend and frankly so am I. I will be glad when it's over, which is sad really, as I feel I should be excited and looking forward to seeing my DGDs. However, hopefully it will all turn out ok and I am determined that DH should have a good birthday as, realistically, it may be his last.

I wonder if DD ever thinks that, or reflects upon the pain she has caused him and the time she has missed. Not that I want her to be caused pain, but I think that when people are young they believe that life is a lot longer and less fragile than it actually is. I suspect that a lot of AC estrange without thinking it through and assuming that they can just walk back into our love and our lives when they feel like it. DD seems to think that everything can be the same but, hand on heart, I am not sure that it ever can be. She has broken my trust, she has caused deep pain and fractured the family. I am afraid to love my DGDs in case they are cut off from me in the future and I am suspicious of her motives even though, objectively, she has been trying hard to rebuild the relationship with lots of messages, calls, photos etc.

I know that this reflects very badly on me, but I am finding it hard to move forward and I am currently stuck in a negative thought pattern, although I know that this is probably at least in part due to not being in a good place emotionally because of DH. I also don't like seeing DD2 anxious as she has been a wonderful daughter and support to me and, if there is an upside, that is what it is. The nights and early mornings are always worse, so I don't doubt that I will be feeling much better later and regret that this post, which was intended to be supportive and offer hope, has become rather self indulgent. I think I need to return to some form of therapy or counselling which I did find helpful.

Whatever stage we are all at on this uniquely painful 'journey' of estrangement, we need to alter our way of looking at life in order to survive. It is all too easy to be sucked down into the vortex of misery and despair, but we owe it to ourselves and to those we love to find the strength to clamber out of it. Now I just need to take my own advice!

Thank you Sparkling for your kind words xx

Smileless Ah! so kind, thank you. We kept each other going in the early years didn't we, as our stories were so similar & started in the same month. Our reactions took us in deferent directions on the same path of estrangement, yet both stayed co'd all these years on

Sorry Marg I think it was my words that upset you. As has been said before; no two situations are the same or end the same. I actually have both; 8yrs of estrangement from my D&GC, yet reconciled with my son after about 6/7 yrs of silence.

My son was dragged into the mess by my D & her H. My son estranged completely after about a year I sent him e-cards for birthdays, Xmas, New Year,& Easter. At the 6.5yr mark, when I decided no more grieving for those that don't care about me or our family being destroyed So no more sending cards. That next birthday, on the day, I couldn't bare not to send one, just simply saying 'Happy birthday Love mum xx' As always no reply. Three weeks later, out of blue I got an email from him, starting off negative, but ending by saying he was wrong in thinking his family didn't matter in his life, with maturity he realised they did matter.
He came back to live with me, has been back nearly a year now, we get on really well, as we did before this estrangement. He still keeps in contact with his sister, has visited her twice since living back home and I was truly shocked when he told me that she not only talks about me but when my beloved GD asked who they were talking about, she answered my mum, your nanny
So Marg don't give up on hope

It is to a great extent how individuals come to terms with and cope with their estrangement Marg. For me, hope was the worse thing because it kept me trapped in an endless cycle of hope and despair when the hope was unrealised.

When I received our ES's email last week due to the death of my mum, it was something I'd have preferred not to have had. After approaching 8 years of estrangement, I can't afford to think that things will ever change and TBH realistically cannot see that ever happening; but that's me.

I'm sorry if some of what you've read here made you panic. As Pantglas has said "every estrangement stands alone".