SUPPORT for all living with the pain of estrangement

I think most people would think that completely reasonable now (hopefully lol) ... 10 years ago less... 20 years ago probably a lot less.

That was a bit of an extreme example I know, demanding money to see children also extreme but between completely reasonable and completely unreasonable... Lots and lots of levels and different generations/ideals/expectations

Thanks hugs well done to you too!

I haven't smoked for years, but never smoked in front of anyone's kids, my own included. Absolutely reasonable to expect anyone to remove themselves to smoke, from children or from other adults.

good for you star x

Thanks Smileless.

I think we are mostly on the same page.

“Give me money or you can’t see the grandkids” is wrong

“Don’t smoke in front of the kids” is acceptable

I couldn't sleep because something was niggling at me. Then it hit me.

I just went and threw the old coat away. Felt amazing, another weight gone.

Sleep well all

Parents requesting GP's not to smoke around their GC is perfectly reasonable. I didn't and would never have smoked around our GC and didn't have to be asked not to do so.

An aquantance came to me once upset that her daughter had asked her not to smoke around the grandchildren and to start smoking outside or there would be no overnight stays. Didn't look like a bad relationship or anything like that. I think I was supposed to be more sympathetic as I smoked at the time lol

I didn't manage to convince her that it was actually a reasonable request and that I would never smoke in my house, even having a special long coat to smoke outside in that hung in the outside shed. She was furious that she was expected to change her lifestyle to accommodate and refused (at that point) saying it was unreasonable of her daughter.

I don't actually know how it played out but sometimes expectations can be very mismatched when it comes to what different people want as boundaries.

Sorry the second paragraph doesn't read very well.

The parents of an AC whose parent(s) abused them, may deny them contact with their GC in order to protect the children and they, the AC's P's may think that is unacceptable behaviour, but it isn't is it.

It depends on the behaviour. An AC who for example tells their parent(s) they can't see their GC unless they do what s/he wants may think that is acceptable behaviour, but it isn't is it.

The parents of AC who wants to protect their children from them because they abused him/her as a child so deny them contact, may think that that is unacceptable behaviour but it isn't is it.

I agree hugshelp that boundaries put in place by AC to stop genuinely unacceptable behaviour from their P's are of course both acceptable and necessary

I’m not trying to cause a disagreement, but who gets to decide what a genuinely unacceptable behaviour is? Surely it’s the person who doesn’t like the behaviour?

I agree hugshelp that boundaries put in place by AC to stop genuinely unacceptable behaviour from their P's are of course both acceptable and necessary.

That said there is plenty of evidence that in many cases it's the AC's way or no way and children are used as weapons by their parents against their GP's.

I agree that when this happens, when a P/GP is faced with only having a relationship with their AC and GC, providing the demands of their AC are met, is indeed abusive.

It seems as if the therapist has given you a lot to think about PF and hopefully this will help in time. As smiles says, it must be hard to hear you relationship described that way by a professional. I'm so sorry your DH is so poorly and you are having to carry all this alone.

Time and again on here I read our generation saying that they are only wanted if they are giving certain things to their children or if they are towing a certain line. It often does sound very controlling. I get that some EC feel the need to have 'rules' on which the relationship is based, but sometimes the control that they have does become abusive. There always seems to be this threat, it's their way or no way. Where this is about stopping genuinely unacceptable behaviour by their parents and having clear boundaries of course that's reasonable, but when it is based on making demands it does seem abusive to me.

To a large degree I long for the chance to even see my ES, but reading on here about those people who do have limited contact, I can see there's still a lot of pain to navigate. I really don't know how we have all come to this.

It does sound as if your first session went well PF.

So your therapist seems to think that your relationship with your DD is both abusive and controlling. That must have been difficult to hear from a trained professional, even if there was some part of you that was aware this is the case.

I hope though that this has helped you in some way, if that makes sense.

How upsetting to know that even though they now have the money to full fill the promise they made to re pay the 10K loan, the have failed to do so; little wonder you feel abused.

We were the same PF putting all the blame and responsibility onto our ES's wife before accepting that even though we believe her to be the catalyst, it was and remains his decision to cut us off.

Well TBH after all the upset with your DD1, after not having seen her sister for 4-5 years and I'm presuming hoping, expecting maybe, to be welcomed back into the family, that minor outburst from her sister, your DD2 shouldn't have been totally unexpected by DD1.

How good of DD2 to try and limit any 'damage' she may have done and how unfortunate that her sister, hasn't as yet responded to her text message.

who carelessly cuts you and laughs while you bleed. I don't know why but that made me shed a few tears.

I'm so glad it all went as well as it did, now take some time for you and your DH and try to relax and focus on what's good in your lives. One another I think is an excellent place to start x

I just wanted to say thank you to everybody for your encouragement and support.

My therapy went ok, but it was just an initial session so I poured out my feelings, but made it clear that they were just that, my feelings, that DD1 would probably have another view. The therapist didn't say he could fix me, but asked several times what I wanted from it, so I said I just want to keep my sanity, which is hanging by a thread. I want someone to not necessarily advise me as they cannot know everybody's views or be in the situation, but I want someone who is on my side but detached to talk to me and give me their views. I said I had therapy a little while ago and I know I need to focus on the good things in my life and to keep busy.

The therapist, who is very experienced and trains others, written books etc, seems to think that I am in an 'abusive', 'controlling', relationship where my DD has been 'cruel' and 'punishing', and I need to maintain my boundaries. I personally don't think that she is deliberately cruel, it is just that she doesn't seem to care. The therapist thinks that they both sounds 'ruthless', which extends into their political views of white supremacy etc. I explained how they only told us about DGD after we agreed to lend them £10,000. We received the photographs of DGD, then 14 months old, with a covering letter saying that they has decided to improve family relationships as we had helped them financially and that they had not previously let us know as they weren't sure that they wanted us to be involved. Also, they were going to pay us back when they could afford it, but they can afford it, as one of their dogs has just had a litter of puppies which they have sold for enough to pay us back. It's not even about the money, it's about feeling used. Although DD did thank us for supporting her and paying the rent whilst she is doing her PGCE.

DD1 just seems oblivious. As I was explaining it to the therapist, I felt ashamed. I see myself as a strong person, but I am struggling to muster some vestiges of strength at present, I just carry on and seek to survive from day to day. DH has been my dearest love, my ally, my partner in life, for 34 years, and now I see him fading and I feel so alone. The therapist thought that I have been coping well but that I seemed to be dealing with everything by myself.

I mentioned twice to DD about going to visit her GM in London; the second time she was a bit irritable and said why did I keep asking her and she would think about it. But what is there to think about? Her GM was a big part of her upbringing, so why won't she make time visit her? GM lives alone with carers and seeing her DGGDs would give her such a boost. DD cut her off at the same time as us, so hasn't seen her for 4-5 years. And why did DD drop all of her friends abruptly, whom she had been so close to for years?

I used to blame SIL, at least in my head, but although I am sure that he encouraged the estrangement, he can't be blamed really, it was DD's choice to cut us off. I think he genuinely believes that he is protecting her from her family. How can she be so disloyal? The weekend went well, we embraced warmly, but it has stirred up the tsunami of feelings that are unresolved because we never discussed them. It is all so unsatisfactory. I just want to understand why, but I don't think I ever will; I am not sure that she understands herself. I have just felt that I have been floating, spinning and drowning, but I am better today. I am just recovering, trying to get back on an even keel, devote my energy and strength to DH. I can now treat the weekend as a mainly happy memory, which was my aim, so to that extent it is all a relief.

But there is a caveat. DD2 and DD3 were there on the Saturday and held some polite conversation but then DD3 went back to London and DD2 didn't come down on Sunday. She was very worried about her cat and DD1 brought their two dogs (so I had to arrange for one of my dogs to stay with his walker as he is nervous of other dogs). She stayed in her room and sent me a text to ask where the dogs were, which I didn't pick up as I was stressing about cooking lunch. Normally DH would have helped, probably dealt with it all, but he was too poorly, he didn't even interact with DD, SIL and DGDS that much, not because he didn't want to, but because he wasn't well enough. I was the one who did the catering and organising the hotel and the wildlife park tickets, buying toys and playing with the DGDs and going for a walk etc. Anyway, DD1 wanted a 'tour' of the house and knocked on DD2's door, but DD2 was in her sanctuary, was taken unawares, so said no, you can't come in, go away, then felt dreadful and sent an appeasing text to DD1 saying she was sorry, had been asleep, but it had been nice to see DD1 and her DCs. DD2 feels that she has let DH down and herself - she is also having therapy and was dreading the weekend, anxiety which was increased by the week's postponement. DD1 has not replied yet. She has caused so much unhappiness, fractured the family. It's like the Billy Joel song, "Always a Woman', who 'carelessly cuts you and laughs while you bleed'.

Anyway, I have rambled on for far too long, so I will shut up now. Sending hope and strength to all those who are struggling.

3nanny6 - I understand how worried you have been and sad ab0ut your daughter and granddaughter. The parenting skills courses are usually very good. It's good that children's services are linking with school. Schools are in a good place to offer the courses because they know their families well and work positively with them.
I think you're right to hold back from contacting the social work department at this time. It sounds as though they are working co operatively with your daughter. I think you''re in the England. If so, grandparents are seen as very important in supporting their grandchildren.

I agree hugshelp there are some amazing people here on this thread .

I am so pleased things were positive PF. As others say politeness is probably an acceptable start. Please don't ever apologise for focusing on your own situation. I for one often think of you and am very happy to hear how things are going. You have such a lot on your plate we are all happy to listen and we know you spend a lot of time being here for others too.

I totally get the fear of vulnerabilty. I have grown very fond of my DDs partner and consider him very much family now but even that frightens me. To have GC to love in your situation must be both wonderful and terrifying.

I agree with smiles, you post some lovely thoughts 3nanny. Not everyone can empathise with situations that are very different to their own.
I see amazing people on here, pouring their hearts out and with grace, kindness, and time for others who are suffering. I can't believe these people are so bad that their own families cannot find a little ground to communicate with them, even if there are some things that need mending.

Maybe those parenting classes will be the start of something positive 3nanny - I'm sure you don't want to get your hopes up too much in case they don't help but they must be worth a try and who knows where they might lead. Keeping everything crossed that something positive comes of them.

Of course, you have to consider the relationship your D's established with her SS, how long that took to build and the damage that could be if they do take drastic action. This also applies to your relationship with your D if you contact them about her 'house guest'.

You're a wise lady 3nanny

Thank-you for your advice Madgran77 and although I put in my post that perhaps this course is late coming I will offer her as much encouragement as possible once it starts.

Smileless2012 the course is not negotiable it is part of the
S.S. plan so she has to comply as the SS work jointly together with the school to monitor the children.
The actual social worker visits almost every week and until they are satisfied that my D is coping well and they think they should wind down then things continue.

The main reason for not calling the SS is because the relationship with her would be right back to square one and of course they may take drastic action against her because of the living arrangements a predicament not of my making my main involvement being for the sake of the children

That's very good advice Madgran. So important to acknowledge the positive changes being made, regardless of how small they may be.

I think that yes, "anything the professionals think will help her try is worth it". I hope she takes part.

"How are we at where we are today?" Oh the times we've asked ourselves the same thing 3nanny; too many times to count.

I think you're right to hold off calling SS, it's so important that you maintain this hard fought for relationship with your D for her sake and of course the children.

Do you know when they're likely to visit again? Are these visits ongoing and at regular intervals?

nanny6 The parenting courses run via schools can be very very good and can really help parents to consider strategies and to look at their own behaviours that might be causing the problems they are experiencing in parenting their children. It is a positive that this resource is being offered to your daughter in my view.

When she starts the course, maybe keep an eye open for little things that might change in her approaches ...it could be quite small things depending on the areas she is working on, but noticing them, saying "Wow, that's a good idea to do that" or " GD looked so happy when you did ….! It was lovely to see!" or whatever can really help to encourage a parent working through the parenting course process. Let us know how things go, when she has started the course.

"Having a stranger move in with the family is more likely to exacerbate any stress for her" that is right Smileless2012.
Also personally that is what I think brings on GD asthma attacks when stress reaches high levels.
At the moment that is why I still have not called S.S. as they would be round to the house a.s.a.p and then my daughters stress level would increase and the GD would suffer even more.

One thing I forgot to post when I began talking about these latest developments was just before the discovery of the living arrangements my D told me that she has been asked to take part in a parenting class run by the head welfare worker in the school and it will be on-line because of the Covid.
I remembered to ask her about it yesterday and she said it will start after half-term. I know I should be positive but somehow I feel it is 8 years too late. I suppose anything that the professionals think will help her is worth a try.

I can't help thinking back to when she was head of the class girl and excelled in her studies and exams even one teacher
praised her as being the class prodigy.
How are we at where we are today? i cannot get any answers for that.

PF So glad it went well. Small steps climbed up a pretty big mountain for you all - an achievement for everybody involved in their own particular ways

"He was not menacing in any way and was polite" well that's something 3nanny.

Your D could be right if your GD if she isn't happy at her school and with her teacher. That said, having a stranger move into the family is more likely to exacerbate any stress for her.

From what you've posted previously your D appears to struggle with her own emotional needs so prioritising those needs of her children isn't going to be easy.

It must be a huge weight on your mind. I hope that it helps talking about it with us x.

Smileless2012
I was a little surprised at him mainly my daughter told me he is 26 years old. He looked about 16 years old with a baby face.
He was not menacing in any way and was polite. My mind could be at rest about him although eldest GD was stressed and edgy which was plain to see and my daughters explanation was every Sunday she gets like that because she does not like the school and she does not like her teacher.
It is still weighing on my mind as the option to me would be to put her focus on the children and concentrate on seeing she meets their emotional needs, if she had him as a friend and he just visited then perhaps GD would feel calmer, but to move him straight in and the children just have to be accepting of that is not giving them any say in the matter.