SUPPORT for all living with the pain of estrangement

Oh Petitfromage those last words ‘snout out’ made me smile!

I remember back when DD and I started on the road to reconciliation and I knew I would be doing a lot of that! Whenever I’ve been tempted to give my tuppenceworth, I’ve swallowed hard, smiled and said ‘wow’ or ‘gosh’ or ‘okay’ - you get the drift!

It does get easier along the way and by now we’re all a lot more comfortable giving opinions, comments and accepting our differences.

The card giving or lack of, is a hard one but I find if I expect nothing I’m not disappointed when that is exactly what happens! I find it so much easier now to do things their way where I can and they seem to accept there are occasions when DH and I choose to do things differently.

Hope your DH is having good days x

@Smileless and hugshelp, thank you, as ever, for your kindness and support.

Smileness, I am so sorry that you are reliving the pain around DS's wedding. It is the 'little' things, the details, which can upset us the most, as they are symptoms of a much larger problem, isn't it? How awful that your DS was ironing the dress, not with joy, but with fear and anxiety.

Do you think that DIL didn't want to be married in Florida or to have the limo and the meal because she felt resentful or beholden in some way? I am sure that is how SIL feels about us, he doesn't want us to be involved in their lives in any significant fashion. Is there a bit of envy, do you think, that you were involved in or in a position to help fund the wedding?

Our SIL has told us, in terms - in an unsolicited email - that he does not want our 'fancy gifts'. However, he does seem to expect large sums of money. He doesn't seem to want anything personal or a relationship - or for DD to have that - but seems to have expectations. I know it is a really horrible thing to say, but when we visited them - and met our DGDs for the first and only time - he had absolutely no care or compassion for DH's diagnosis. I genuinely think that he would be happy for us both to die asap, if he thinks that there may be something in it for him.

@hugshelp - SIL is mean with money, which I am sure he has persuaded DD is just a case of being non-materialistic. I wouldn't presume to know, but DD seems happy at present, she has two gorgeous daughters, and that is all that matters. She is making a big effort to rekindle the relationship and I must not spoil this by dwelling on past hurts. However, it is not just that he is a 'tightwad', but he doesn't seem to do anything to share the care of the DGDs, such as bathing them, changing them, or playing with them. DD does everything, but I need to keep my 'snout out'.

Evening PF, your comments about DD1 and the GC and her sisters all sounds very promising and I think your suggestion and the way you put it sounds very helpful.

It's horrible to know your SIL is so controlling, so I'm guessing he's somehow persuaded her that she doesn't do cards, or at least not to your home. Is he generally a tight-wad? Or is it literally just about the control do you think? And is he totally lacking in showing affection and concern or is it just that he won't do it with material things?

If people 'don't do cards' then why not a simple note? After all it's not really the card, it's the fact they are thinking of you and have taken the trouble to reach out with loving words.

Anyway, I'm glad things are generally going well with it, tiny steps forward and all that. Thinking of you and Mr PF.

I don't think your story is silly at all smiles. Whatever the dynamics of why your son was doing the ironing, it was clearly a big deal to him if he was agitated and shaking.

Hi PF. I wonder if what you're dealing with and feeling is all part and parcel of the difficult road to reconciliation.

When there's been a period of estrangement, it leaves the memories and emotional scars of the pain that you endured. I've always thought that because the very basis of the relationship has been changed because of the estrangement, that there must be a constant need or perceived need, to think before you say and act.

What would have been totally fine to say or do prior to the estrangement, may no longer be the case. You may for example in an 'unguarded' moment react to a certain situation the way you always used too which was never an issue, and having done so, rightly or wrongly, worry that it may have caused offence.

Your s.i.l.'s domination of your D was, is and probably will always be something that will impede your relationship with her. You won't have the relationship you once had because he simply wont allow it.

I wonder if she'd mentioned to your s.i.l. about sending a card for example to you on Mother's day and was 'told' not too. She may not have thought it worth mentioning when it came to Father's day because she knew how her H would respond.

I feel as you do, that someone may not 'do cards' but why not send a card to someone when you know it would mean so much. TBH and I don't want to upset you, I think the level of control your s.i.l. has over your D is such, that she wouldn't even consider sending a card, or doing anything else, no matter how small, without his agreement.

Dear PF my heart goes out to you. I'd be angry on her behalf too if I was her mum, in fact I'm annoyed on her behalf any way.

Reading that section of your post reminded me of something that really upset me at the time, the memory of which still upsets me, and when I tell you what it is, you'll probably think it's silly too.

ES and his wife as you know, married in Florida, Mr. S. and me were the only 'guests' and we all stayed at our villa. We wanted to give them a real treat after the wedding so booked a fabulous restaurant we knew well and a limo to take us all and bring us back.

ES asked me for the iron and ironing board, which I got for him and proceeded to iron his wife's dress. It was a fiddly thing to deal with and took him ages.

A little later I saw that he was getting very agitated and upset, that he wouldn't be ready in time because he still had his shirt to iron. I saw him ironing it and he was shaking.

I felt so sad for him and had to stop myself from taking over and ironing the shirt myself. I can see his face as I type this and I'm crying; how silly is that.

It's good to know that things are generally going very well and as long as you remain guarded about not 'upsetting the apple cart' I'm sure things will continue to go well.

Sending hugs to you and your DH x

Good morning. I will be raising a glass to Charlie and please pass on my regards to Bertha and Fred.

I don't have any plans to visit a hairdresser anytime soon, but I am so excited that my extremely hairy dog is going to the groomers today!!!

DD1 (formerly ED) called DH on Father's Day and was on FaceTime with the DGDs for a long time. She finished by saying love to you ALL - and I interpreted this as her wanting to re-establish contact with her sisters. She also mentioned something similar recently, when she asked if they were aware of DGD1's birthday (she will be two shortly). I said I thought so and I believed that they would be loving aunts, and I would be very happy if they reconciled, but that any initiative has to come from her.

In fact, she has left it so long that I think it will be quite difficult. I suggested that she send them a message or a photo, maybe of the DGDs - to effectively plant a seed and give it time to grow (DD1 is quite into gardening). I think that now her daughters are starting to get to know and love each other, she realises what she has lost. However, what I am also sure of is that if I get involved in any way, it will backfire horribly.

DD1 did not send a card for Father's Day and, on the Saturday, I sent a message saying that no card had arrived, but that the post was bad, so if she had sent a card it might have been delayed. I probably shouldn't have said this and it prompted 7 missed calls from her (I didn't pick up as I was in the garden, but I tried to call back after the first 5). It wasn't the only thing I said - I was trying to keep it light and cordial - but she knows about DH's prognosis, so is it too much to expect that she could send a card on Father's Day, when he will only have one or maybe two more?

After she had spoken to DH, she spoke to me and we chatted but she was clearly a bit put out by message the previous day, as she said 'we don't do cards'. She said something similar to me just before Mother's Day and I put on a brave face and said of course that's fine - and I know that she is busy with the DGDs etc. I also suggested that nobody really expects cards whilst the virus is going on. However, she had obviously picked up that I was disappointed about Mother's Day, which I was. She said what's the point of sending something that will. end up in the bin after a few days. I said I like receiving cards and I keep them and you can send me one next year, but only if it is not on the basis 'I'd better send the old bag a card' ie not if she resents it or can't be bothered. I said it in a jokey way - or at least I tried to, as it was otherwise a very positive conversation.

The thing is that she has always sent me a card on Mother's Day, even when we were estranged and she was otherwise out of contact for 6 months and we didn't even know where she lived. She used to send a bunch of flowers as well. I don't mind about the flowers but I think that if you know that a simple thing like a card is going to bring a lot of pleasure, why wouldn't you send it? And, although she said 'they' don't bother about cards, she had previously told me how happy she had been to receive a card signed by us as well as her sisters on the birth of DGD2 and is clearly hoping for DGD1 to receive birthday cards from her sisters.

What upsets me is how SIL dictates everything and she lets him do it, including her relationships with her family. One thing I am sure of is that DD2 and DD3 will never want to have anything to do with him, which is why it is so tricky. I know that he doesn't buy DD1 gifts or give her cards, and I am sure he doesn't send them to his family either. She told me that she wouldn't be getting anything for Mother's Day. So I am also angry on her behalf. She had a traumatic C section six months ago, when she and DGD2 could both have died, but he can't even give her a card from the DGDs and spoil her a bit on Mother's Day. Anyway, rant over, things are going very well otherwise and I don't want to 'upset the apple cart'.

Wishing you all a happy and sunny day!

I like the name charlie for your campervan smiles - good suggestion PF.
I've only ever named one car, that was my first and she was called 'PollyAnna'. But the dishwasher is called Bertha and the washing machine is called Fred. I'm very jealous of the birds you and Mr S have been seeing.
Afraid the sun didn't last long here. We had a lovely sit with our DD and her OH yesterday afternoon, the sun kept coming and going, big grey clouds passing through, it was cardi on-cardi off every 5 mins weather. More rain this morning then a mixed bag again this afternoon.
We got post this morning for the first time in a while but heard there's a lot of posties off and it's really chaotic at the sorting office. Some outbreaks of covid not far away are causing a bit of havoc.
I think there's so much division everywhere right now. People seem to be getting very polarised in their views on a lot of things. I'm not really looking round GN atm, just popping in here.
Have a good evening all. x

Isn't it great to have some lovely weather. We enjoyed a BBQ last night and after we'd cleared up, we sat out on our roof terrace until 11.00 pm listening to David Bowie.

It was a beautiful evening and we had our patio heater to take the chill off; it was great.

A lovely walk with the dogs this afternoon and another BBQ for tea.

I've realised just how much of an impact the weather can have. Everything seems much better when it's warm and sunny; even the restrictions don't seem as bad.

My hairdresser bless her, rang me yesterday to book an appointment for the 17th of July; what joy. She wasn't too happy to know I've been in engaged in some DIY hair dressing but what else can you do when your hair is short?

I told her not to worry, it looks OK to an untrained eye and she can only do her best. I also said it could have been worse as at least I didn't use the clippers we bought for the dogs.

She said she has one client with green hair, one with orange hair, one with a lopsided hair cut (well at least mine's even) and one, whose made such a mess of her hair that it's beyond description!!

Who knows, she may be pleasantly surprised when she sees mine.

I'm thrilled with the name choice PF and so is Mr. S.we're looking forward to Charlie being a part of our rather weird family.

Well DS contacted us on facetime but didn't send his dad a card and didn't remember to wish him a happy Father's day but, we've had a lovely BBQ and Mr. S. has been watching a peregrine falcon flying not far from our roof terrace, a heron, a hobby and about 80 swifts, so he's thrilled and if he's happy, I'm happy too.

Smileless - I am very flattered at your name choice and hope that Charlie brings you both much pleasure!

Thinking of everyone on Father's Day and hoping that it has been an ok day. xx

Morning PF we liked your suggestion so much that we've decided Charlie it is.

That's been said to me and another regular poster had a couple pm's from GN's saying that GN isn't as kind as it used to be; I agree.

There's so much uncertainty, lock down is getting people down and the number of deaths due to the pandemic is terrible. Clear division of those who think the government's doing OK and those who think the opposite. Protest marches and riots are also a source of concern and disagreement.

I sometimes think the country is more divided now, then it was following the Brexit referendum.

This thread, despite the sadness of our estrangements and the difficulties of rebuilding relationships when we can, is a breath of fresh air and it's good to know we're all here for one another through good times and bad.

Good morning Smileless. I called my first car Agatha, but that was an MG Midget - I'm not sure whether it would suit a camper van. Maybe Charlie?

I have also been on GN less recently, apart from my recent thread. I am not sure why, maybe that it sometimes feels a bit uncomfortable or just not as kind as it used to be. Is that what the other posters are saying?

Even Mr. S. refers to my car by name. We've been trying to agree on a name for our new camper van but no luck so far. Anyone got any suggestions?

Quite a few regular GN's have been 'missing', there's a thread about it. I've had pm's from one or two who feel GN isn't a place they want to be at the moment.

Glad you had a good time and are feeling cheered smiles. Betty is a nice name for a car.

Sorry not starblaze

Has anyone seen or heard from Starlady? Starting to worry now

Mr. S. and I took Betty out for a run earlier; my Fiat 500. The car needed a run and I hadn't driven at all for 3 months.

It was lovely; warm sunshine and the top down. Really cheered me up.

Well that's a bit odd star but I think you're right you can only wait and see.

Sorry you're feeling fed-up smiles when you were really looking forward to your lodge. There's not an awful lot to get excited about atm so that must be a big let-down. And yes the weather is abyssmal, endless rain here today.

We've had no post for over a week, and there's things we should have received days ago. Hope our postie is ok.

What a shame Smileless ifi were you I'd plan some activities you can do for if the news I bad to keep you occupied.

Oh dear Starblaze I'm sorry if this has put a damper on what you say is the first genuine looking apology you've ever received.

I agree that for now 'wait and see' is the best way forward.

Well I'm fed up; totally, utterly, 100% fed up. All week we've had a sea fret, hardly any sunshine and now it's raining. It's been pouring with rain since mid day, and if that's not bad enough, because of what I over heard on the news this morning I checked the letter we'd received from the site owners where our lodge is.

In my excitement, I read it that they are re opening on July 4th but what the letter actually says is July 4th is the earliest they can open.

So we still don't know if we can go, it depends on government guidelines. All is not lost but my little excited balloon has been well and truly burst.

Just letting you know that I showed the email to some level headed friends and they pointed out that there is a comma after my name. There is also no signature and it's a reply to another email. They think it was sent in error, perhaps unfinished or because she changed her mind.

I haven't forgotten it was the irst genuine looking apology I have received.

So I think the advice to wait and see if more context arrives is probably the way to go but I don't check that old email often anymore

Oh goodness, I'm sorry sharing my 'body blow moment' affected you too smiles.
We had a foggy start to the day too.
Afraid I'm always a bad sleeper.
We're not going out to the shops just yet. Give it another couple of weeks to see how things are I think.

I'm not surprised you have a FOGO PF with everything that's going on. Do hope Mr PF does well on the chemo and it's not too horrible.

goodness, worrying time for you with your AD 3nanny and I'm sorry my post upset you too. You do have a lot on your plate, it's not surprising you feel fragile but you sound to be doing lots to distract yourself and buoy yourself up which is good.

I'm so glad you heard those important words starblaze. I honestly don't think it ever is too late, if someone genuinely wants to build bridges and forge new ways, but only time will tell if that is the case. It may be too late to put things back how they should have been, but not to chart a new course for the future. But obviously don't rush into anything on the strength of one, not explained, apology.

Sorry, it's been a long day and got late, so I've had to skim through, so apologies to those I've missed, thinking of you all.

Fortunately we don't have to think about accommodating children anymore Starblaze we did make sure that it would be suitable for the dogs though.

We've just got back from a very long walk with friends of ours and I realised when we got home that apart from Mr. S. of course, they are the first people I've spent time with since the beginning of lock down.

I was really proud of our dogs, as they both said how well behaved they are.

If I didn't have so many children living at home, most of which are bugger than me, I'd love to live in a camper van. If it feels like home it's probably the one

Well we went to look at the camper van we'd seen on line and not being ones for letting the grass grow under our feet, decided to buy it.

It will be ready for collection in about 3 weeks so Mr. S. sent some pics to DS in Aus. and he replied with two photo's from 'Carry on Camping' of Kenneth Williams and Hattie Jakes.

Mr. S. he wasn't too happy about being likened to KW so I said it was worse for me, being likened to HJ. Oh he's very brave when he's on the other side of the world!!

I totally get it Starblaze. We are also very happy and settled and it would be one hell of a thing to risk that on the strength of one non specific apology.

Not an easy or enviable position for you to be in.

3nanny6 You are so wise to step back and wait. So hard for you though and you have my empathy!