SUPPORT for all living with the pain of estrangement

In reference to my previous post, the answer is again NO.

I have rarely/never seen an EP/EGP or anyone who got NC'd by their 'child' "own" anything. Nor have I seen when Us on the 'other side' who have obviously been abused are believed...

We get platitudes and such at best... BUT I want/expect more from My personal relationships...

I would rather have zero 'likes' from everyone then 1000 likes from people who just want to 'like' Me because I'm dysfunctional with the same views/perspective as they have and am willing to say so.

So if it's a "popularity contest" about who is winning/losing-- I am okay with losing because... I am not 'playing a game'.

Accusation -- "You always 'side' against EP's..."

Me -- "No. I just 'side' against the EP's that sound/act/behave in unhealthy/dysfunctional manners... How is it My fault that many EP's/EGP's exhibit those 'things'?"

These discussions confirm why estrangement happens. The “experts” referenced here seem as one sided in their approach as some contributors.
The majority of families work a way through conflicts without becoming estranged. That’s usually because of love and compromise.
The families who become entrenched in conflict and reach the point of estrangement are as many have said, likely to have been abusive in some way. Absolutely right for example, never to let a grandfather who sexually abused his children ,anywhere near his grandchildren
Every sit.uatioj is different,it’s important we remember the title of this thread is about support for all living with the pain of estrangement.

Ironflower -- "No one deserves to be assaulted." and I could not agree more. However, being "assaulted" does not always have to be physical.

I have been sanctioned for my truth telling and while I try to keep things 'general' at times I have to point out, "Do you not see how your actions are counter-productive to what you say you want??? You really don't see 'your part' in the relationship issues? Really???" As I have also said, "Is there a polite/'supportive' way to say, 'Your actions are leading to the outcome you claim to want to avoid' OR 'Your actions/mentality/behavior is probably why you are having relationship issues NOW.'?" My answer to that is "No."

If the 'excuse'/justification for using the legal system is to "get what you want" because that option is 'available' to try to modify the AC and their behavior... How is that different from an AC using, "If you don't give Me/do 'this' then You won't have access to My children..."? In dysfunctional environments/families using "what you have" to get a better outcome is 'normal' and that goes both ways...

As far as I can see, the only difference is which party/'side' is using such tactics. And I should add -- There is a huge difference between the way abusers use 'consequences' and the way genuine victims do.

Unhealthy thinkers UP/escalate their abuse when 'challenged'/are told "No." to what they want... Victims withdraw... Unhealthy thinkers say, "I'll do something worse to you..." (like court action) and believe it/the threat is 'normal'/healthy/okay.

And when the person on the "other end" of that mentality (the Adult Child) says/thinks/believes -- "That's not 'ok' with Me... In fact, that's more abuse/manipulation..." and withdraws further? I know I understand/appreciate/sympathize with that position... Does anyone who identifies as an EP/EGP see why their own/ANY AC might feel the same way I/they do?

I got Grandmasosad mixed up with another poster on here who turned up uninvited to a game and got yelled at.

I do take back some of my judgement (not on the stalking or threatening) as I searched her post history and saw that her daughter assaulted her during a political argument. No one deserves to be assaulted. Though I do detest trump supporters.

Is it really just the politics? Is that all your daughter accused you of in the emails or is something being left out? My parents are racist, sexist and homophobic. If that was the only problem with them and if they didn't share their views at all in front of me or gc, then I wouldn't have cut contact for that. However they constantly felt the need to use slurs in front of me and my children and start arguments about it.

Ironflower -- What I posted about a game etc was from another site. It was an example of how the parent was not listening to her daughter.

Grandmasosad has said that she received communications that show that her daughter clearly has some issues with the relationship. Instead of addressing those issues, she has admitted to threatening court action to get what she wanted -- to see her grand-children...

This is certainly not a healthy looking relationship and I don't think there is much chance of improving the situation with the lack of consideration that daughter in this case is being shown.

Daughter clearly feels and by her actions (limiting contact/writing letters etc) that there IS an issue at play and she is probably feeling very attacked/victimized/not listened to... Because she IS.

"I think people might be assuming this way because she paints herself in a completely innocent picture." -- Yes. That is a factor in my opinion and why I have given the advice I have.

Her singular focus is on seeing the grand-children and not improving her relationship with her own child is troubling to me, as is making such threats being counter-productive to what her goal is.

why is there a need to assume that it is Grandmasosad who is in the wrong here

I think people might be assuming this way because she paints herself in a completely innocent picture. She just says that she was accused of bad things but won't elaborate. She won't tell us what was in the email or what was shouted at her.

That combined with the stalker type behaviour and turning up to games even though there is trouble and she knew it would upset daughter and likely grandchildren.

We really don't know the grievances at all or who is truely at fault (as OP hasn't shared that information), I only think that some of OP's behaviour is concerning.

On my situation: I would be very frightened by such a letter. I'm still frightened by my mum and her capabilities when it comes to sabotaging my life, I can't imagine how I'd have felt if she took the court route. She is an actress of Oscar winning standard and I'd be so nervous in an official court setting, I'd worry I wouldn't be able to defend myself in her presence.

I was very lucky though as I did offer for my mum to see my children and she said no, in type, so I had that evidence. When it came to the point of full estrangement and I had stopped trying to communicate, my children were fully on board having told me they didn't want to see her. As much as I tried to hide what was happeninh from them, they heard the constant phinecalls, they saw my stress and upset. They worked it out.

More on my situation: I very clearly laid out the issues that led up to estrangement. There was no anger, no profanity, just factual events and understated if anything. I was still called cruel and nasty.

On this situation:

What did daughter say in the emails? Was it really so awful?
Why is it dismissed when communication is key to resolving issues and daughter is communicating even if it is angry or upset communicating? It's a basis, a foundation, a start for finding a way to meet somewhere everyone is heard.

Threatening court is a clear message that you don't care about your relationship with daughter and only the relationship with grandchildren matters.

Please just ask yourself, how your daughter can feel confident your relationship with your grandchildren won't cause them the same future issues and follow the same patterns.

the latter is making use of the legal resources that are available

I do get what you're saying here Smileless. However she didn't just use the legal resources, she threatened it to get what she wants. They are very different things.

MrsWarren -- It’s exactly the same thing - the house is not the son’s and the children are not the grandparents’." <-- This.

This is NOT a case of comparing apples to oranges. It IS the EXACT SAME THING. Period.

I am floored that this is even up for debate...

Ironflower -- "Isn't threatening someone with litigation to get what you want just as bad as someone threatening to stop visitation if they don't get what they want?" Exactly. Why is it okay for any adult to "get what they want" by leveling threats? That is not how healthy relationships work. Many replies seem to gloss over the fact that Grandmasosad says that she used the threat of court action to get her way. That is bullying/intimidating/blackmailing etc. and yet it has been largely ignored as was the fact that there were issues BEFORE she made that threat.

It certainly shows a distinct double-standard between what is okay for 'grand-parents' to do and what AC are 'allowed'.

An AC threatening to prevent their parent from seeing their GC unless they sign over a home is hardly the same thing as a P/GP saying they'll go to court in order to maintain contact with their GC

It’s exactly the same thing - the house is not the son’s and the children are not the grandparents’.

The former is blackmail and the latter is making use of the legal resources that are available

It is blackmail - if you don’t let us see our grandchildren we will take you to court. Blackmail and legal opportunism.

Because one is the parent. The one with PR and the one who loves her children beyond.
The buck stops there.

Nobody should be able to tell a parent what is happening with their children except Child Protection agencies.

My heart breaks for this poor woman. I hope she breaks from this horror soon.

An AC threatening to prevent their parent from seeing their GC unless they sign over a home is hardly the same thing as a P/GP saying they'll go to court in order to maintain contact with their GC.

The former is blackmail and the latter is making use of the legal resources that are available.

As you say Bibbity the D could have very good reasons for not wanting her mother to see the children on the other hand she could not have, so why is there a need to assume that it is Grandmasosad who is in the wrong here, when it could just as easily be her D?

We haven't worked out a specific visitation schedule yet but I know we will now that litigation is hanging over their heads

Isn't threatening someone with litigation to get what you want just as bad as someone threatening to stop visitation if they don't get what they want? That whole sentence makes me very uncomfortable. 'We want the grandkids this weekend. No? We'll go talk to our solicitor'

I would look for them down the street, drive by their house hoping they would be in the yard

Please don’t do this. This is stalker level behaviour. If they have cameras, this will not go well for you in court. If they have told you to leave them alone, it is creepy for you to then drive past their house peering in.

We honestly don’t know your story and you haven’t shared it. I hope that there is reconciliation for you both, but you do need to start listening to what she’s saying, and she needs to find a better way to communicate.

Smileless

It could also be the case that the parents can't afford a court case or can't deal with the hassle. They may feel that they are effectively being blackmailed into handing over their children.

A few things for GPs to consider when they're contemplating a court case:

1. A court case is going to put stress on the family. Even if it is not discussed with the children, they're going to pick up on that stress.

2. Court cases are often very expensive. Is the family going to be adversely affected by that? That could potentially be food coming out of your GC's mouths.

3. If there is any sort of abuse occurring, is it liable to escalate due to the effects of stress?

4. If you are awarded visitation, what impact will that have on the children as they get older? "Sorry kids, you can't go away to Scout camp. You have to visit Grandma." "Sorry, guys, even though you haven't seen your other grandparents for two years, you have to see Grandpa over Christmas because that's what the court said."

5. If the parents split up, what happens to visitation? How many directions do you want this child pulled?

6. What if the parents face a situation where they're going to have to move, and staying where they are is not an option? Are you prepared to require they stay in the area, even if it means a lower quality of life?

You truly need to consider if going to court is really what's in the best interests of the children. Also consider that if you say you're filing a lawsuit, and/or if you lose the case, you might never see those children again.

Grandmasosad, you are obviously in a lot of pain.

I urge you however to try to reset your relationship with your daughter. I went back to read your previous post, and see this is about different moral ideologies. Try to see her side and how the world is changing. Respect her different views and promise to not discuss your opposite views in front if the children.

Is your county conservative with conservative judges? Which might be why she is fearful of court?

Be aware, she is very likely looking for legal representation as we speak.

Keep going to therapy. Try to be reconciliatory with your daughter.

Anyone who threatened me with could would never have voluntarily seen my children or me again.

I hope you can find a middle ground.

Bibbity -- This sort of situation is precisely why husband and I went No Contact/never allowed a relationship to be established with Our children.

AC threatens to not let grand-parent see the children if they don't sign over a home and that is "bad". Grand-parent can threaten legal action and that = A-okay!

"Now I’m hoping that the daughter is doing what I’ve seen others do. Give the weekend. Then get the hell out of dodge. Pack up, new jobs, new state, new address. By the time they’ve been found it’s all done." -- I'd do all that but not 'give the weekend'...

Actually there is a massive issue in the states with regards to rouge judges not listening to parents.
Her daughter could have extranet valid reasons for wanting to protect her children.
But that doesn’t mean a judge wouldn’t still order visitation.

Absolutely sickening what someone will do to a mother wanting to protect her children. And having the audacity to dress it up as love.

Now I’m hoping that the daughter is doing what I’ve seen others do.
Give the weekend. Then get the hell out of dodge. Pack up, new jobs, new state, new address. By the time they’ve been found it’s all done.
Of course only a few can afford to do that unfortunately.

I hope your daughter finds the parents against Grandparents rights page.

A lot from here gets screen shot anyway so if she is there she’ll probably see it.

Chewbacca -- Grandmasosad has admitted that to get what she wants (to see the grand-children) she threatened court action. She also said that there was 'issues' prior to that threat being leveled in the form of "accusations" from daughter.

I am not sure how anyone can say that is okay. There is clearly far more serious issues going on and Grandmasosad could end up fully estranged based on actions she is taking.

As I have tried to explain the fact that Grandmasosad is 'rug sweeping' certain parts of her situation will not help. It will likely have the opposite effect.

This is why I recommend that parents re-read that list of "accusations". Those "accusations" are the reality/belief of the AC.

Would that extract perhaps be more beneficial to estranged adult children perhaps? We only ever know one side of any story, whether that's the story that estranged grandparents give us, or the story that estranged adult children give us. We can never know the other side's version because they're not here to tell us. We simply have to accept the storytellers version of their truth, as they see it. The real truth may be light years away or somewhere in the middle.

This explanation from an expert explains what the problem can often be:

"Of course you know why you are cut off.

According to you, your daughter stood in front of you at the baseball game and TOLD you why. I presume she used words you understand in a language you both speak. Thus you DO know.

I can understand you did not like the delivery method. But the delivery method does not affect the MEANING of the words, nor does it invalidate her feelings or opinions. You may feel justified in turning off your listening because you didn't like her delivery, but that's not helpful at all for you. It's like refusing to accept your paycheck because you want it printed on a pink check not a green one. The money is still the same. [....]

I can understand that you may not agree with whatever it was she told you is the problem--but again, that does not mean there is no problem. She told you in a language you understand what the problem is, and you understood her meaning. That you disagree with the problem is immaterial. It's still a problem whether you agree with it or not. It will be a problem forever until you deal with it. Saying, "I don't understand the problem" when you really mean, "I don't agree this is a problem" will not make the problem go away. It will make the person who DOES think it a problem go away--and you had a 8 year cut off demonstrating that principle.

If your daughter thinks it's a problem, IT IS A PROBLEM, whether you agree or not. SHE--not you--has the final say on whether she has a problem with you or not. Here again is a power struggle between you: HER: "This is a problem", YOU: "I see no problem". Guess who's going to win this debate? Not you. [....]

This game of 'I don't understand what happened' when you have been told in words what's wrong is really counterproductive. Yes, it permits you to shield your ego/self esteem from criticism and 'exposure' of your inadequacies in the relationship--but it loses you the relationship.

In order to solve the problem, you have to decide what is more important to you: your daughter and grandchildren, or your ego and belief that you are innocent of doing anything but little insignificant wrongs. It's very common, especially for people from abusive backgrounds who were not adequately nurtured as children, to stop protecting their egos--way to threatening. And many--especially if they have other emotional outlets (such as a supportive spouse and friends)--will choose ego over a relationship. It's easier and more comfortable--but ultimately very self defeating and impoverishing."

This is why I recommend that parents re-read that list of "accusations". Those "accusations" are the reality/belief of the AC.

www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

It would appear from Grandmasosad's post that her D didn't have sufficient reasons to prevent the relationship between GC and GP's which is why she wasn't prepared to risk Grandmasosad going to court.

Just because someone makes accusations, doesn't mean there's any truth in, or substance too those accusations. Someone sending "nasty emails" IMO is a long way from seeking any kind of compromise or agreeing to mediation to find a way forward.

There are few successful outcomes in the UK when GP's go to court but that may not be the case in the 50 states in America where Grandmasosad lives.

None of us know enough about Grandmasosad's "situation to rush to judgement" I agree Iam. From what we know, her GC are for the time being at least, no longer in danger of losing their GP's because of there mother's desire to use her own children as weapons.

Without knowing the content of the emails her D has sent, it maybe that her D didn't want them made public in a court of law as their content would reflect badly on her as opposed to her mother.

For the time being at least, this relationship between GC and their GP's has been to a certain extent salvaged.

I hope you can keep us updated on how things progress and I wish you well Grandmasosad.

Iam64 -- People wonder why estrangement happens. Not dealing with relationship issues is one of those reasons. By Grandmasosad own words she has said that there was issues and "accusations" made by her daughter. Sweeping 'those things' under the rug and threatening court action will only make the situation worse.

In every case I am aware of where a parent has threatened to take an AC to court/did and was unsuccessful, ended up in No Contact. Most AC who has had that leveled at them as a threat ends up cutting their 'family' off.

And I agree, "Mediation can’t be attempted if either side is abusive," and who knows which party that is or if it is both...

My advice is always work on your own to improve family relationships because 'upping the ante'/making threats etc. rarely gets the desired outcome...

The pain of estrangement/No Contact is terrible/living bereavement etc. and is that not enough of a reason to work with perhaps a healthier approach?

Other EGP's have been "down that road" and it didn't work out/gain them a relationship with their AC OR grand-children. Maybe a 'new approach'/not repeating the same errors will prevent Grandmasosad from ending up permanently estranged.

HolyHannah, your response reads like an angry attack, rather than “advice”. I don’t know enough about Grandmaosad’s situation to rush to judgement. If she has an existing, living relationship, it would be tragic for the children to lose that.
I fully accept the stresses and complexities involved in family relationships. When things are so bad litigation is considered, mediation is needed.
Mediation can’t be attempted if either side is abusive,

Grandmasosad -- So you have been having relationship issues with your daughter and she has been pulling away and keeping her children away from you.

She sent you e-mails explaining what her issues are with you. Instead of dealing with her grievances/issues you then threaten to take her to court?

If I were your daughter and that happened I would say, "Sure! You can have the kids for the weekend." This would give me time to seek my own legal advice.

The goods news is if your daughter doesn't give in, the chances are better then good she would win in court if you took that route.

For GP rights/visitation there is a criteria that most states follow. One of the things most states will not interfere in is a married couples 'right' to parent as they see fit. IF both your daughter and her partner agree that they don't want their children around you, a court (even with an established relationship) is unlikely to issue you an order.

I suggest you read those nasty e-mails and "accusations" again. Those are the things she is going to tell the court about the relationship difficulties.

As has been said many times... If you want a good relationship with your grand-children you need to have a healthy relationship with their parents. Mend the relationship with your daughter and hopefully "the rest" will follow, is my advice.