Hope For Estranged Grandparents

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Smile I agree so strongly I am copying your message here

What damages children Starblaze is losing the GP's they know and love and that damage is intensified by parents who refuse to re establish that contact for their children.

Children can be left thinking that their GP's don't love them, that they've done something wrong which is why they can't see them anymore.

That is the reality. Yes, you can put the blame on GP's who decide to go to court but the real blame is with the parents who put their own grievances above the welfare of their children. Who stop contact not because they are putting the welfare of their children first, but because they can.

Star the court not seeing through could work both ways. Need to see this from both sides.

"You will never have a normal relationship with a grandchild if you cannot maintain one with their parent and that is stressful for everyone, not just the children." That would be a shame but it would be the adult problem not the child's. What is 'normal'? A good relationship is all that matters, not an individual's idea of normal.

Ironflower Thu 18-Jun-20 22:46:38 I am sure you are right but what would be a better system?

ocean "Children are not blind and notice more than we think." so very true. I remember a child saying their mother told lies. This works both ways, they see through their parents too.

Nonnie, my older children have seen and remember me trying to work things out with their grandmother, inviting her over and her walking away from us. They remember how she treated their father. On the positive side, I can honestly say they have never felt unloved by her after she chose to leave. Maybe because they didn't feel loved by her when they did see her? My conscience is clear.

That's exactly the point, Smileless, that laws follow fluctuations in societal behaviors-

Prior to the massacres mentioned above, men had been walking away from their familial responsibilities and obligations since time immemorial- Then as laws moved towards holding them accountable, up crops the men's movement-

The current culture (cult) of grandparenting will become a passing phase as parents move towards fostering reasonable relationships rather than finding themselves enmeshed and legally vulnerable-

Nonnie -- You said, "There is no reason the child/children even have to know about the court case. A responsible parent would not involve them."

A responsible grand-parent wouldn't put the children in that position by taking their parents to court in the first place!

Do you really believe that grand-parents can launch a legal case and the minor child(ren) involved won't know about it?

If the grand-parent is alleging abuse do you think 'the court' isn't going to ask for evaluations/interviews with the children etc?

How can the minor children NOT be exposed to/dragged into the situation? And then you are insinuating that the parents are 'bad' if they involve the children/they know about the legal battle?

Children are more often than not within earshot of adult discussions- Even if further away they hear what's being said when voices are raised- One way or another they come in contact with the ongoing drama- And unfortunately sometimes parents grandstand to get their children's attention, to be spectators, to remember-

rosecarmel -- So you know my 'mom'?

I'm doing the 'sad laugh' of truth.

The current culture (cult) of grandparenting will become a passing phase as parents move towards fostering reasonable relationships rather than finding themselves enmeshed and legally vulnerable

This is spot on rosecaramel.

“Modern day” parenting alone appears to be a barrier in itself.

More parents are choosing to send their children to nursery/childminders over grandparents when they return to work. Children now have a huge variety of after school/weekend activities to enjoy, rather than being sent to their grandparents. Families, especially where both parents are working, are busier and therefore any free time is usually spent together.

There has definitely been a shift towards a more reasonable relationship with grandparents as opposed to the enmeshed relationships which have come before.

Grandparents are becoming less involved in the day to day lives of their grandchildren and hopefully, as a result, the rank entitlement some have to other people’s children will diminish.

There is no reason the child/children even have to know about the court case. A responsible parent would not involve them

Actually, it is now seen as responsible parenting to be open and honest with one’s children (in an age appropriate way, of course).

The children become involved as soon the court papers are submitted, not when their parent speaks to them about it!

The only way judges can force society's hand to change is to occasionally rule in favor of one thing or another to set a precedent, a legal wake-up call that frightens the bejesus out of people-

Accepting invites to heavily rely on parental support can land you in court, where you may be required to pay the piper-

Many that accept the invite pay in other ways, when weakened by enabling and struggle to stand on their own two feet-

No court wishes to set a precedent for overriding parental responsibility.

Nonnie please explain to me why you continue to use the word "damaged" to describe me when it is clear I find that wrong and hurtful.

Anyone else who would like to weigh on whether it's OK to call anyone, especially sexual abuse surivors "damaged" please do so.

OM Sorry if you thought I was talking about you, I wasn't. This is about children in general not specific cases. The OP expressed that.

"The current culture (cult) of grandparenting will become a passing phase as parents move towards fostering reasonable relationships rather than finding themselves enmeshed and legally vulnerable-" Crumbs grandparenting is a cult? Been going on a long time then! I think you agree with me that this situation would not occur so often if adults behaved like adults.

HolyHannah Fri 19-Jun-20 11:43:46 yes I do think that. No responsible parent would put a child through that.

"A responsible grand-parent wouldn't put the children in that position by taking their parents to court in the first place!"and a responsible parent would not take away a grandparent because they didn't like them, they would only do so if the GP would cause harm to the CHILD.

rosecarmel Fri 19-Jun-20 12:31:07 I agree and that is why the courts need to make the decision. I reiterate, if the adults behave like adults they children are not damaged.

Motherofdragons Fri 19-Jun-20 12:44:41 why would "The children become involved as soon the court papers are submitted, not when their parent speaks to them about it!". The papers don't go to the children, they go to the parents. Every responsible parent would protect their child from this and it is not 'age appropriate' to tell children you hate their grandparents.

Nonnie you clearly have no understanding of court procedure. It might help you to read the article I posted.

The papers don't go to the children, they go to the parents

The papers are ABOUT the children, so they are involved.

Every responsible parent would protect their child from this

Stop trying to tell parents what they should be doing and what they shouldn’t be doing. Or what is responsible or loving parenting. You don’t decide how others chose to communicate with their children. This is part of the problem.

it is not 'age appropriate' to tell children you hate their grandparents

Where did this come from?

it is not 'age appropriate' to tell children you hate their grandparents

I would never use the word hate.
But I will tell my children why we’ve cut off MIL and About the bad choices she made. And how that made us feel.

Nonnie -- "a responsible parent would not take away a grandparent because they didn't like them, they would only do so if the GP would cause harm to the CHILD."

I am a responsible parent, as is my husband and we were both the scapegoats/most targeted victims in our 'family'. We are protecting our children from ABUSERS.

Our abusers would claim we are the 'issue'. So should the court go by 'popular opinion'/consensus or should courts not get involved in our personal choice to exclude our abusers from our lives? Which scenario puts our children first?

If even one family like mine could be utterly destroyed by more liberal GP rights, I consider that one family too many.

As some have corrected me it isn't ALWAYS about power/control when EGP's take stable parents to court. So that means it happens sometimes? Occasionally? How many families like mine are worth risking? Did you have to justify your parenting decisions to 'an authority' or did you do what you thought was best for your children because you were the parent?

What some parents consider best clearly isn't.
The point being, again, that every single case is different.

It's entirely right for some adults to be excluded from children's lives; be it grandparents, parents, or whomever.

In other cases it's not right.

In other cases it's not right

But it is still the parent’s decision to make nonetheless.

I agree with grandparent’s rights in the spirit the legislation was intended. I have seen many instances where grandparents are raising grandchildren as their primary carer due to the parent’s addiction. It would be traumatic to remove those grandparents from the child’s life and the relationship must be protected. This also applies following the death of a parent.

The court does not exist however to police fall outs between adults. As another poster has already said no relationship with parents, no relationship with their children. I fully accept that if my brother and I had a serious fall out, that I would not be able to maintain a relationship with his minor children. I understand that if a close friend and I had a serious fall out, that I would not be able to maintain a relationship with their minor children. Grandparents are no different!

I understand why some posters are saying that grandparents taking parents to court for access is about power and control because essentially, that it was it is. It is an attempt by an individual to exert power and control in a situation where they have neither.

*that is what it is.

Typing small words too quickly is always a recipe for disaster!

HolyHannah, I know a lot of moms -- and fathers-

I know me, too- What I've done, what I haven't, the damage I did and how I managed to contribute to the multi-generational mess and dysfunctional message-

In contrast to what I don't know, what insight I've acquired isn't much-

Ya can't address what ya can't see- My blindspots are many, many of which I might not have had if I didn't get punched in the head-

Nonnie, your judgement isn't based on society as a whole-

When employers began to solely offer part time positions, aside from managerial positions, in order to not have to subsidize health insurance, what quality of life was left was minimal- That was a tipping point, one that led to taking on debt which resulted in the financial crisis-

Young parents were not responsible for that- They accepted help only to have parents hold the help over their heads and then treat the grandchildren as collateral-

For as messed up as my family was, my grandmother wouldn't have considered doing such a thing and neither would my mom- So, nope- Today's grandparenting practices have not been going on for a long time- But long enough to have caused damage-

Stop trying to tell parents what they should be doing and what they shouldn't be doing why?

Not all parents are good or even adequate parents for various reasons. Parents who take away their children's GP's because they themselves decide they don't want contact are not good parents. They are not taking into account the affect this can have on their children.

There are many parents who ask GP's to look after their children to avoid the cost of nursery and child minder's fees. We've seen posts on GN from GP's who have been the sole care provider when parents are working sometimes for several years who are then, denied contact with their GC due to an argument with the children's parents.

We've seen posts here on GN from GP's exhausted from the amount of child care they've undertaken but are afraid to cut back or stop altogether in case they're stopped from seeing them.

At the moment on GN we have a mother who is being emotionally abused by her son and is worried about talking to him about how his behaviour is hurting her, for fear of not seeing her GC, despite the fact that she provides all the child care needs.

What about the tragic case of Ellie Butler referred too by Madgran earlier on this thread? Her GP's fought tooth and nail to try and get her away from her father, to stop him from doing what he shouldn't have been doing. They failed and the poor child died.

worthitall's experience will I hope give comfort to estranged grand parents who are thinking about taking their case to court.

It's an example of the expertise of the family courts to see when a parent's decision to take their children's GP's away from them has nothing to do with their welfare, but is all about the parent.

It stands to reason then that the family courts also have the expertise to see if children maintaining contact with their GP's would put those children at risk.

Are the courts infallible? No of course not, I wish they were but mistakes can be, and sadly are made. Parents can request that if contact is given that it be supervised.

Alternatively, parents can agree at mediation with the GP's times and days where they can see their GC. They can insist on no sleep overs and even that the children are not taken to their GP's home, but are always taken out.

Not ideal by any means and I'm sure what a lot of GP's would object too but, if the GP's just want to be able to continue to see their GC, to be able to buy gifts and cards for birthday and Christmas knowing that those will be received and not consigned to the bin, many if not all, I'm sure would agree.

We'd have agreed in a heart beat. Not how any GP's envisage conducting their relationship with their GC, but better than nothing.

Thanks Nonnie; some good thought provoking posts from you.

I'm not sure some posters are listening to what some of us are actually saying on this topic.

Bear in mind, estranged children know very well parents can be abusive. That is a given.

Then accepting that some grandparents can be abusive.

Then accepting that there are many more abusive people out there than anyone wants to admit and cn the abuse cycle leading to abusive parents and grandparents

So it's basic maths.

Some scenarios children had great relationships with grandparents and were cut off for reasons like MoD mentioned.

Some children have abusive parents and good grandparents but the act of the grandparent gaining access through court does not prevent that child living with their abuser. The grandparent gaining access against the parents wishes causes more abuse an anlot of other issues. (Posted article on the subject)

Some children have good parents and abusive grandparents and because abusive grandparents leave little evidence they may win access and will abuse their grandchildren or use the grandchildren to abuse their child and the poor grandchildren will have no choice in the matter.

Some children have abusive grandparents and parents so now they have 2 abusers fighting over them and abusing them and each other.

Add to all of that that fighting through court will add Stress to the child's life in some form or other, regardless of the situation, what logical person thinks it's a good thing for children?

It isn't logical-

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troxel_v._Granville

Citizens have the right to petition the court, not force the parents hand- The initial appearance resulting from a petition doesn't involve children and is predominately shot down-