Estrangement "is perhaps as common as divorce in certain segments of society"

HolyHannah, who I am is constantly in flux- The family dynamics shift, too, as stuff gets discussed and digested and then realized- And it's the realizing of things that has guided me not to ask for forgiveness- Not to burden my children with any sort of commitment because they're continuing to work through what we've collectively been through AND should they at some point decide to liberate their lives from family ties, they can do so freely without having to navigate having prematurely forgiven-

Like me, they privately morn the lives they might have had it if weren't for pernicious, familial patterns-

rosecarmel -- "Accountability is "incredibly" freaking uncomfortable- But what's worse is tilting at inner windmills while asking why, Why, WHY while trying to beat them back with imaginary fists- You have to ask for help-"

I LOVE that statement... Due to its TRUTH.

For Me the painful truth of accountability is the usual story from a child abuse victim... When I asked for/got "help" the first harsh truth I was taught is that adults are solely accountable for their actions.

Wait... WHAT??? But I was 'taught' that adults only respond/react to My "bad actions". The idea/concept of holding my parent(s) accountable was almost heresy in my own abused/dysfunctional mind.

Holding someone "accountable" = BLAME. And blame/shame was to be avoided at all costs because it is 'wrong'... and it hurts/feels 'bad'.

My healthier thinking taught Me -- Abusers compare/equate accountability with blame because blaming others' for behavior is "bad". Which is projection of what THEY/abusers actually DO -- Blame their victims for their own bad/abusive behavior...

So if abusers can shift/manipulate definitions (turn apples into oranges) they do... So, I never blamed my 'mom' for anything because I never even held (or KNEW to hold/should hold) HER accountable for her actual/real behavior.

So by the time I got around to NOT blaming Me/myself for everything it was a relief to know/be told/validated that it was OKAY to 'blame'/hold my 'mom' accountable for Her adult behavior.

I was shocked (sarcasm) "Really? Not blaming the next person down the line/your weaker/lessers is unhealthy?" I figured that out because there was nothing in my life to fulfill that 'role'... I was the "bottom rung" -- The only person I had to 'blame' for my unhappiness was ME.

Which incidentally turns back around into healthy thinking when recovery occurs...

I think what happened, is that she didn't see the pattern while simultaneously suffering from the impact of it, and when it came to attempting to communicating "that", she'd close down, and rather that show her face, which she may have been struggling to see, because it was covered by something, she'd "show her ass"- She knew she made mistakes, but the defense mechanism triggered when she "attempted" to hold herself accountable- As if she knew she wasn't "wholely" accountable, but had no idea why-

Having struggled similarly, inwardly, myself with an impasse, I could be projecting that she had no knowledge of the wonderfully, colorful world of graphic Disney dynamics that "patterns" imprint-

Accountability is "incredibly" freaking uncomfortable- But what's worse is tilting at inner windmills while asking why, Why, WHY while trying to beat them back with imaginary fists- You have to ask for help-

rosecarmel -- I think I understand what you are saying... I have some "incredible skills" in 'some ways' but when those "skills" I had at seeing things (like her dysfunction/abuse) collided with her self-shielded blind spot(s) she'd 'pretend' those things didn't exist...

And that's a pleasant and easy 'trap' to fall into/follow into because that becomes a "normal"... It's the, "If I just deny that I am in pain/hurt enough THAT will make 'the pain' go away..."

My truth is -- "Reality hurts at times. Denial of truth, when presented, hurts more because when those two collide you can either accept or 'decline'... Anyone who 'declines' to accept truth/see reality has little hope for a happy outcome."

And those "blind-spots" are only an 'issue' if they are not acknowledged... And no one has to know fully what their own "blind-spots" are, so long as they grasp that those 'spots' exist.

Dysfunctional thinkers believe they have NO "blind spots" or any other faults/flaws whatsoever...

You see/own that You have "blind spots"... I know I do as well because as much as I have studied learned/evolved etc... I am never going to be perfect or know everything/'it' all either.

The "best I can do" is to try to be more mentally healthy and set a positive example while exposing those that are NOT.

My mother never once claimed the good, not to my knowledge- Discussions involving what she claimed were limited, such as her mistakes- But she'd suddenly change the subject the closer you got to her pain or blind spot or combination of both- So, I never got to know her, and as a result inherited similar pain and blind spots-

Ironflower -- By outward appearances both my sister and I and my husband and his brothers are "happy and successful" minus the functioning alcoholism... We are No Contact which is what makes him and I 'different' from our siblings.

So whether the children are "successful" is not an indication of a healthy family. Again, it's funny that EP's cling to the notion that if the kids turn out "well" that is an indication of how 'good'/non-abusive they were and YET if one or more of their children turn out to have "issues"? It's totally on the kid and they have no right to "blame their parents". Who should I blame for the abusive job they did of parenting Me? I used to blame Me but that wasn't exactly healthy.

There's even double standards in their logic... If the children turn out "good" it was because they were "good" parents. If a child turns out "bad" they were just poor 'good parents' with a "bad apple". Accountability still at zero when the bad happens or it is suggested that they are the "bad".

So yes, out-ward appearances mean nothing and no matter how well someone thinks they "know" a family, since only the child knows what it is like to be raised in that 'family', definitive statements like, "I also wonder how many people, again having no knowledge of his upbringing but knowing what a mess he was making of his life, questioned the part his parents had played in it, when they'd played no part in it at all."

Parents "play a part" for better or worse -- ALWAYS. EP's that only want to claim the 'good' are showing their true colors.

I once had this dream where by some external force, a giant red dot appeared on abusive peoples foreheads. Everyone eventually figured out what they meant. They were shunned for the most part but some made their dots disappear because they fixed themselves. Presto, enlightened society where the red dots couldn't be in charge of anything.

In real life, I think a lot of people would grow long fringes or buy a hat or cover it with thick makeup and convince themselves it wasn't there. They would probably find others like them to tell each other, they didn't deserve the dots or perhaps start campaigns to convince the world that these big red dots didn't mean danger at all. That they were wonderful and special and it was the people without dots that were the bad ones.

Dreams are weird.

GFIL was extremely abusive. He physically abused all of his children and did worse to his daughter. None of those children are super high-functioning today. FIL completely gaslit MIL and Hubby, saying he "didn't see that side of GFIL". From his perspective, all we hear about is St. GFIL of Blessed Memory.

FIL himself was extremely emotionally neglectful to his wife and children. They didn't have a lot of money, but there was always money for things HE wanted to do, even if it meant MIL couldn't afford groceries that week. A few times GFIL offered FIL a job and/or needed help, and FIL immediately packed up the whole family and moved them across the country, barely considering the impact it would have on them. (The last time he did this, Hubby had just been diagnosed with autism and they had just got all the supports he needed in place for school. The place they moved to didn't have all of these supports.)

BIL, who is basically the Golden Child, is still deep in the FOG. His wife can't stand FIL. SIL has little to do with her family of origin at all. Hubby's recently went full-on NC with FIL. I had been NC with him for years, and Hubby had been LC. Hubby finally had enough.

Highly unlikely that a family will raise 4 happy, secure, well rounded children into adulthood and not the 5th

I have a brother like this. To an outsider we would look like 3 well-rounded and successful children with one child being a violent drug addict. Unfortunately this isn't the case. We all endured abuse, we all endured zero love (though I was the golden child as the only girl and got love from my mum).
- Oldest brother (half brother) in the military, this was how he dealt with it, joined the military and got away.
-I have a masters degree, well-educated, great husband and kids (outsider wouldn't see my horrible anxiety and ptsd)
-Youngest brother also well educated and earning well (current golden child). He is however a bit of a bum that an outsider might not see. Since getting a girlfriend a few weeks ago tells his ex-fiancee he no longer has time for his kids, on his weekends the kids are just with our parents. He's happy for them be parents again. He has never watched or looked after his kids by himself (they are 3)
-Second oldest half-brother. Constantly in prison, constantly violent. I've seen him once in 15 years.

An outsider could look at this and see Philip (name change) as a bad egg. How could parents raise 3 good children and 1 bad egg. They don't see the abuse. My parents are also more than happy to keep portraying this. In reality we all coped in different ways. I threw myself into my school work, my younger brother seems to be the apple that didn't fall far from the tree.

It is possible for this to happen

MotherofDragons, thanks. I will have a look at those threads later on when I have a bit more time to read them.

And you wonder where these kids get the idea that cutting off contact with their (non-abusive) parents is a good thing to do

Holyhannah - This is because no one actually sees themselves as an abuser. No one looks at this and says 'Oh I was abusive' (so so rare). In the older generation, there is a common theme of abuse is physical or sexual and that's it. Not all people of course but I have definitely seen it a lot. As long as you weren't raped or beaten horrendously you weren't abused. They can't see how their behaviour could have hurt children because back then parenting was usually very parent centric.

I tried pointing out examples of behavior from when I was very little and showing that that is now against the law (I work in this field and we are talking clear physical abuse) she immediately backtracked, denied it happened and can't even conceive of the idea of them being abusive.

Then there is the other tactic. The serious abusers (serious physical harm, sexual, murder) they also rarely see themselves as abusers. They see the children as deserving of the punishment. The children deserve this because they are so bad / terrible / horrible.

The other excuse my mum gave was that my brothers deserved what they got for being horrible. How awful my brothers were to her when she had the mercy to give them shelter / clothes after their mother abandoned them. They owed her for being their step-mum. My 3 year old nephew deserved 12 smacks within an hour (on the hand) with no warning because he had been so naughty and horrible all day. She literally talked about how horrible this little 3 year old is. He's 3.

Now to catch up on all the other comments lol

rosecarmel I suppose in areas where children are growing up in terrible poverty it's just neglect on a larger scale. Adult or adults responsible somewhere

Chewbacca -- Of course I judge people who admit to doing crappy things like trolling for support from other innocent victims -- That's gross.

If someone took pride in being a racist I'd judge them too.

Judging people isn't necessarily bad. It's what you are judging them over that differentiates whether the judgement is good or bad.

Judging someone based on the color of their skin etc. is bad. Judging people by their actions and words is fair game.

rosecarmel I'm 20% here and 80% staff training. I've missed bits of conversation, will look back through

Bibbity I'm glad. Ex golden children I've spoken to have had a much harder time getting out of the fog. That's strength

Madgran -- What I meant by that is when I hear the line, "He/she was always 'difficult'." or they became 'difficult' at "some moment in time" is that it is often used as a blanket excuse by abusers, especially toward the Scapegoat, for the issues.

The vague 'difficult' excuse, is just that. The 'kid' hit their teens (for example) and they started to 'talk back' because they didn't like/appreciate their 'parent' talking to them like they were a three year old... Does that make them 'difficult' or them maturing? A parent just describing a child as "difficult" is red-flag territory for me.

Again it blame-shifts any conflicts squarely onto the 'child' without taking into account what they may be RE-acting to. It makes the parent sound lazy... Like they can't be bothered to figure out WHY the child is being 'difficult' -- like maybe something they are doing? It sounds out of tune with the child and makes me question their parenting.

Much like when AC finally estrange and the 'parent' says, "I didn't see 'it' coming." EAC say, "We sent up lots of flares. Were you looking and not caring? Or blind?"

Starblaze

There has been a lot of research done about childhood abuse and addiction. I don't remember the statistics but it's a very high corralation between them. Either emotional, physical or sexual. It doesn't encompass the smaller stuff like smoking but it dies make those vices far more difficult to quit. It's well known (I have direct experience here) that in sexual abuse, the grooming that is done (usually by a close family member) is to segregate a child away from other close family, convince them they are the only safe place and the only one who loves them. This is part of how sexual abusers convince their victims to keep secrets.

I was just unlucky that it was right. My mum left me more vulnerable to other types of abuse. Took a lot of hard work to unravel it all

I wasn't being snarky when goading HolyHannah to offer a take on the opioid epidemic in the US-

My own is more of a question:

What does chemical dependency depend upon?

If not a Petri dish of financial insecurity and dysfunction in pretty much every household including the one in DC and every other governors mansion in every state, then what?

HolyHannah @ 21.40, have a think about it......

My husband was the golden child. He hasn’t repeated any of the traits but what was awful (for me mainly) is that he became his mothers surrogate husband.
He jumped to her, she could do no wrong etc etc. When in actual fact it’s was a deeply toxic and unhealthy dynamic.

So glad that’s over.

2 days ago I received a call from my sibling wanting to talk, and we did- I knew the shine of dual retirements, acrylic nails, hair dye, house, cars, vacays and socials were veneers masking the decision to marry to get out of the house and camouflaging the fact that they too could have been a better parent-

But not a better parent to me, because I'm their sibling- I was clear about that, to liberate them from that imagined burden- And had mom not been handed the seed (not maggot..) to plant from her mother, they might have been shown how to be a caring sibling-

As it stands, I doubt I will ever seen- In sunlight or shadow- They've all seen me as much less for too long for that to happen- But perhaps knowing they have, will cause them to pause before treating others the same way going forward-

Not really sure Puberty is an "excuse time!" Lots of kids have difficulties when they hit Puberty, and as teenagers, and come out the other side. Sadly drugs/alcohol can be two of the hardest for them to get out of. Some dont make it. But a family saying that problems started then with alcohol/drugs is not necessarily an "excuse time"

There has been a lot of research done about childhood abuse and addiction. I don't remember the statistics but it's a very high corralation between them. Either emotional, physical or sexual. It doesn't encompass the smaller stuff like smoking but it dies make those vices far more difficult to quit. It's well known (I have direct experience here) that in sexual abuse, the grooming that is done (usually by a close family member) is to segregate a child away from other close family, convince them they are the only safe place and the only one who loves them. This is part of how sexual abusers convince their victims to keep secrets.

I was just unlucky that it was right. My mum left me more vulnerable to other types of abuse. Took a lot of hard work to unravel it all

Chewbacca -- So says the person who used to "feel the need to spill my guts to a publicly accessible online confessional booth; seeking approbation and affirmation from random souls who are equally as damaged and haunted by a past."

Who are you to judge anything I have to say when you admit to doing that?

You're the gift that keeps on giving HolyHannah!

It must have been devastating for that family to have to cut out a son/sibling Cheebacca. With toxic people, sometimes estrangement is just inevitable