Religion and Estrangement/No Contact.

rosecarmel -- The way my husband and I conduct Our faith is that it is Our everyday 'normal'. Every decision we make, how we interact with each other, Our children and the outside world is done based on Our faith. It's rather a state of mind/lifestyle as much as it is a religion.

If Christianity was practiced around me, it certainly wasn't applied in any consistent way. I wonder if that is a norm...

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- You bring up an interesting point I had not thought on in a long time...

As a child, my 'mom' was all about going to church on Sundays but would complain often about the politics of the church and how 'mean' some of the "pillars of the church" (older families in the community) were to her and how she felt she did so much 'work' for the church no one recognized.

I often thought, "Why do you bother to drag Us there every Sunday then?!?!" because it was just more interacting with bullies and people telling Me how 'wrong'/bad I am, so I sure didn't want to go!

Oddly, after my sis and I left home she stopped attending with the declaration, "Church long longer 'does anything' for Me." I think pretending Christianity was just one more manipulative tool in her cabinet.

Like, "Look at Me! I'm a 'good' mother. I'm Christian and take my kids to church." and mean-while I think she knew what she was doing because it was all very calculated in hind-sight.

My mother was aware of the politics- How much it bothered her I don't know, but it wasn't enough for her to stop going- Her departure came much later on- It kind of tied into the family dinner I described ..

My mother was a misfit- It was the only skin she was ever comfortable in, that of a loner, except when she was with "her people"- She summoned them while she lay dying, days before taking her last breath- Which was graceful-

When I arrived at her bedside, we held hands- She said my name and one last time and attempted to bridge that pernicious gap that she didn't know how to explain- I could only respond with words of love and offer her some physical comfort-

Perhaps what she believed supported the gap between us, prevented her from maturing and learning about accountability, because religion offered her forgiveness, for whatever words that continually eluded her ..

You who never arrived

You who never arrived
in my arms, Beloved, who were lost
from the start,
I don't even know what songs
would please you. I have given up trying
to recognize you in the surging wave of the next
moment. All the immense
images in me—the far-off, deeply-felt landscape,
cities, towers, and bridges, and un-
suspected turns in the path,
and those powerful lands that were once
pulsing with the life of the gods—
all rise within me to mean
you, who forever elude me.
You, Beloved, who are all
the gardens I have ever gazed at,
longing. An open window
in a country house—, and you almost
stepped out, pensive, to meet me. Streets that I chanced upon,—
you had just walked down them and vanished.
And sometimes, in a shop, the mirrors
were still dizzy with your presence and, startled, gave back
my too-sudden image. Who knows? perhaps the same
bird echoed through both of us
yesterday, separate, in the evening...

-- Rainer Maria Rilke

Yes, Toadinthehole, many are referred to as "the way"- Which doesn't leave much room for coexistence/pluralism- But could ..

I've listened to all ages talk about their spiritual sense of loss during this ongoing crisis, all "building" goers- They seem not to know how to practice at home, without the choir, the piano, the organ, the pastor or priest or groups and clubs-

In that regard, is practicing Christianity that hard? That it's so incredibly difficult to do alone? Perhaps even hypocritical?

rosecarmel, this is ‘churchianity’, not Christianity. Like I said upthread, the church is corrupt. We haven’t been for eight years. Where we live...they are just clubs for middle class Christians. Jesus is head of the church, and no one else. The only way to God is through Him. Our four children are Christians, but only two go to church, I think mainly for the social side, as their age group are lovely, unlike ours. Christianity started with Jesus of course, but when He rose to heaven, He took all the Old Testament faithful with Him, who obviously trace back to Adam and Eve. Christianity is about being right through Jesus with God. Religion is about working hard to do the right thing, which usually involves sets of rules, in a vain attempt to find the divine. You can’t get there through religion. This is why initially, it was known as ‘ The way’.

"Church long longer 'does anything' for Me."

Should have read -- "Church NO longer 'does anything' for Me."

rosecarmel -- You bring up an interesting point I had not thought on in a long time...

As a child, my 'mom' was all about going to church on Sundays but would complain often about the politics of the church and how 'mean' some of the "pillars of the church" (older families in the community) were to her and how she felt she did so much 'work' for the church no one recognized.

I often thought, "Why do you bother to drag Us there every Sunday then?!?!" because it was just more interacting with bullies and people telling Me how 'wrong'/bad I am, so I sure didn't want to go!

Oddly, after my sis and I left home she stopped attending with the declaration, "Church long longer 'does anything' for Me." I think pretending Christianity was just one more manipulative tool in her cabinet.

Like, "Look at Me! I'm a 'good' mother. I'm Christian and take my kids to church." and mean-while I think she knew what she was doing because it was all very calculated in hind-sight.

In one sense you could say that Christianity as a whole supports two groups, people who like to tell others what to do and people who like to be told what to do- In an organized fashion- Give me your money, please- Ok, I will-
From the Vatican in Rome, to clap-board chapels in Mississippi and all points in between-

People will pay top dollar or the last pennies in their pockets to be liberated from their existential pain, to be spiritually dismissed or ethically cleansed, "anything" to prevent them from maturing and holding themselves accountable, but instead transfer that responsibility to religious belief or school of thought-

"The fact that Christianity spread and survived would indicate that it had something behind it" -- Jediism is surviving and spreading as well... It's just a more recent religion to evolve. Does length of existence impact the message or spirit of a religion? If that's the case Christianity aught to 'pull-over' as there are far older religions out there...

There were many people who claimed to be the Messiah, but where are their followers today? The fact that Christianity spread and survived would indicate that it had something behind it, as with Islam and some other Faiths.

geekesse and Alexa -- You are both ascribing things to Me without knowing Me or what knowledge I possess. It is your opinion that I know nothing of Christianity (not true) and if others want to call Jediism a 'joke religion' that's their prerogative/they can. It doesn't affect Me at all.

People have challenged Me on my faith and that is fair. Is not Christianity equally subject to scrutiny? Or is it only non-Christian faiths that are subject to examination?

And again... What part of the Jedi teachings (not its origin) is somehow harmful for people to follow? Is the only 'thing' wrong with the religion that it started as fiction? Some believe the Bible is fiction...

Holy Hannah, I thought you were interested in Christianity. I doubt if you know it all.

HolyHannah, I’m not mocking you. You do seem very sensitive about your own religion, while being very Dismissive of the faith of others. You - and other posters here - have every right to believe in whatever you wish. In general, I would have thought it a good idea to know the basis for one’s religious faith, and the history of the religion, but if you prefer to set aside the origins of Jedi Order, do feel free to do so. (It wasn’t created for a fictional series, it was created as a parody religion to protest against census questions on religion. Did you read the link I posted?)

I haven’t been ‘proclaiming’ Christianity - or any other religion - at all. Check my other posts to this thread (pages 1, 6 and 7). I recommended the atheist approach of the Invisible Pink Unicorn as an antidote to the claims of conventional religions, and I commended Bible proof-text ping-pong as a good game. The latter tends to both enrage and undermine many Christians. (Actually, you can do the same with other holy books, but you really need knowledge of Hebrew, Arabic, Sanskrit, Pali or Punjabi to do it well.)

geekesse -- So to be clear you're just mocking Me and not my religious choice. Well, Christianity is believing in a 'savior' that was conceived by a ghost, born to a virgin and who died and came back to life... Yeah... Sounds totally plausible.

And there is a huge difference in a religion being created for a fictional series and it being created as a "joke". Certainly the teachings of the faith are nothing to joke about.

Again, you attacked Me and my choice of faith but not something about the faith itself while proclaiming Christianity is the be all and end all? That's amusing.

HolyHannah, there’s nothing about ‘Jedi Order’ that I find offensive. I find it amusing that you reject one religion, but then hitch yourself to another. If it works for you, go ahead, but you should be aware that it started out as a joke.

If you want to poke holes in the religious claims of Christianity, try The Invisible Pink Unicorn (http://www.palmyria.co.uk/humour/ipu.htm ) It was originally contrived by atheists to show that the tenets of Christianity are contrary to reason. It is a lot more fun than Jedi-ism, and a lot cleverer.

Alexa -- I understand the Christian religion and its 'symbolism' as I was raised in the faith. I learned my 'lessons' well so really do not require refreshers...

geekesse -- That's exactly my point. Scientology has become semi-legitimate and is nothing but a money making cult.

You don't hear that kind of stuff going on with those who identify as Jedi... What exactly are those who identify as Jedi doing in the world that is bad/negative from your perspective?

What precisely about the tenets/beliefs of the Jedi Order do you find offensive? You seem to be attacking the faith and its existence but you haven't exactly said what in its teachings are bad/damaging?

Back to Christianity, a virgin 'got in on' with the HS and got pregnant... Really?

Again, I just don't feel 'bad' for having personal strength and convictions in my own beliefs. I don't require others to validate me and I certainly don't feel threatened when people question my faith. Some Christians sure seem to be.

God has yet to indicate to Me how He feels...

Holy Hannah wrote:

" Symbolically eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the 'Savior'?"

There is nothing supernatural about a man who sacrifices all for his people. Flesh and blood of that man are not magical , as in the old pagan religions, but symbolise his sacrifice often sacrifice of his life at the hands of men of pride and arrogance.

*mileless2012

Yep, that's life down under for you. I nearly died when I saw a photo of someone swimming with whale sharks; I had no idea how huge they areshock.

I swim with whale sharks every year. All of my family do. Even the little ones who are about 4 years old. They think nothing of jumping off a boat 25 minutes out to sea and treading water whilst all around them whale sharks, sometimes 30 of so at a time, go about their business. Of course you would never touch them but it is possible for them to swim by and be so close that if you reached out your arm you would indeed touch them.

They’re in the waters where I live every autumn and I charter a catamaran for a family day out. It’s the best day ever even though we pretend there’s no such thing as a sea snake.

HolyHannah, Scientology is way worse - invented by a science fiction writer as a way to extract money from the vulnerable and the gullible. That doesn’t make ‘Jedi’ sensible.

Most rituals, religious and non-religious, including many family rituals, involve symbolic actions, and many of them look daft to those outside the community that uses them. Why do many families choose to sit down at Christmas, with relatives whose company they don’t much enjoy, to eat a meal that no-one really has an appetite for, to celebrate the birth of a person they don’t believe in?

More than one way to use religion to abuse someone apparently

geekesse -- Check out the origins of Scientology...

And if you look into the background of the Jedi faith you'd see that is based on multiple different religions/faiths.

Anyone who finds my beliefs 'amusing' really should look at Christianity from an unfiltered lens...

Really? Symbolically eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the 'Savior'?

It is mildly amusing that someone who rejects conventional religions chooses to embrace one that was originally conceived as a parody religion in order to make a political protest. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

Holy Hannah, I believe I have seen a play about this sort of situation plus the complication the girl heroine was Lesbian. It was called "Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit".

I mention this because the arts are great for helping with putting things in perspective.

Another good article is:

www.learnreligions.com/jedi-religion-jediism-95690

It's a quick sum-up of the longer version.

Madgran -- I think this is about the best and most concise lists of how I practice Jedi...

www.templeofthejediorder.org/doctrine-of-the-order

"A Jedi lives as a Jedi at all times. Hypocrisy is their worst enemy." This was something I alluded to about whether I say something 'in private' or I post it in a comment, my truth never changes.

That mentality is also why I was attracted to the faith...