Why do our adult children do this to us?

Polly, You need to step back and regain that mother daughter rekationship. Petit post was spot on. It is not your daughters responsibility to ensure you are not lonely. Rebuild a life for yourself. You can see posts on here from some very damaged adult children and their attitude to their parents. Either way make your own life and don't ask about meeting up when you phone, just how is she and what has she been doing. Good luck.

Obviously there are posters here who have their own issues and pain but please don't assume your experience is mine, or that of Polly.

There are parents who have never been abusive (NB I never said, or even implied that "a little abuse" is okay) and have done all they can to be supportive and loving throughout the child's life.

In a case known to me, a manipulative husband made sure his wife cut ties with her mother when their first baby was born because he perceived they were 'too close' (not an opinion shared by anyne but himself).

For her own and baby safety, she went along with it.
Ten years later, when she eventually got free of him, the daughter, grand-daughter and Mum were reunited and only then did everyon learn what had gone on.

You cannot and should not assume because you were abused, or abusive, that others have the same experience.

Ironflower -- Unlike EP's who can only read a few lines of things like Issendai's posts, I read everything they write. And whether they like it or not, people like Issendai, "The Narcissistic Resistance" (YT channel) and people like Dr. Carter and Me see through their dysfunction.

I don't always get the details or time-line perfect but these stories play out the same way over and over and over and yet, the EP's like we are talking about, continue to claim they are unique/a unicorn and when faced with evidence?

Better to ask Dr. Carter and Gus... Oh and He (Les) is something. When I watch his videos I'm laughing and talking to him on screen... He and his team are real life heroes and be darned if he doesn't always have something new/insightful to say...

Did you see the video with him and his twin brother? I am so glad they are fraternal twins... I don't think I could cope with a second, identical Dr. Carter...

Man those words could have come from my parents' mouths. They have come from my parents' mouths, just in different words.
My mum still rings regularly saying I'm horrible, I took the grandchildren away, I'm horrible for still holding a grudge. So I try to talk about some of the issues (to make sure it doesn't happen again) and instantly get met with divert, deny, deflect. They will never change and I'm starting to accept it. I've found the videos 'Surviving Narcissism' on youtube to be very therapeutic

Ironflower -- It's actually another of those "common themes" I have spoken of before...

There's almost a predictable cycle with many EP's... It starts off with quite a bit of clarity and then slowly gets clawed back...

At the conclusion of which is, "It's my AC that is abusing MEEE!!!"

I don't think most EP's or soon to be EP's are interested in bettering the relationship. I think they want validation that they are not doing/have not done anything 'wrong' and that the issues are on their AC just like they believe.

The problem is, many would rather 'play the victim' then own that their behavior is what landed them in estrangement/No Contact.

What will get more attention/sympathy, "I constantly fought with my child and their spouse and refused to apologize. I continued to try to be the 'super know-it-all adult' which was exhausting and off-putting to them. Until they had enough and walked away." OR "I have no idea why they walked away. I mean, they said 'some stuff' but it was so hurtful and didn't make any sense. Worse? They are with-holding my poor grand-child(ren) who I love so much!"

BradfordLass73

Why, if we were such terrible parents, did they not just leave home the minute they could and cease contact then?

Why? Because they spent our entire lives putting us down. I wanted to run away so badly but I had nowhere to go. I wasn't allowed to have friends. I knew nothing about being independent and they loved it that way. Honestly I think my dad would have killed me if I had tried to rebel or run away.

No child ever wants to estrange. We try so hard to make it work with our parents. We write heartfelt letters. We try to have boundaries and protect ourselves but in the end our parents just hurt us more and so we go NC.

No parent is perfect, we all have regrets, have made mistakes
My parents think they were great parents. They said the same, everyone makes mistakes. We need to get over whatever we are holding a grudge against.

The 'mistakes' my parents made:
- Not believing me when I said I was being molested. Continuing to leave me with him.
- Constant silent treatments if I did/said anything wrong. Note I didn't dare ever say no or talk back to my parents.
-Physically abusing my brothers
-My dad constantly saying he was going to kill himself and disappearing for days.

Say you were not horribly abusive
So a little abuse is okay? My parents are like this. I wasn't beaten so I wasn't abused. There are many other types of abuse and all of them are devastating.

Note that not all estrangement is because of abuse however your blanket statements of it always being the AC's fault don't help either.

"As I have said, my mum would say that she loved me too much - but clearly not enough to take responsibility for her part in our estrangement."

Absolute 100% that...

AE didn't happen in a vacuum for me...it was years in the making. Harsh words, frequent fault finding, physical mistreatment. As an adult, you are finally able to look back on the experiences. For some, separation is the gift they give their sanity. For others, forgiveness and reconciliation is the better path, you do not know the windmills she is fighting. Allow her time and space. The final resolution is hers.

Mod,

Amen

I know that, for me, the birth of my first child forced me to re-evaluate the relationship I had with my mum.

That is when I began to distance myself and over time, looking back at my childhood through a fresh pair of eyes, I found it intolerable to be around her, and for her to be around my child. I just couldn’t pretend anymore.

I too acted out as a teenager but now understand that I was reacting to my environment. I was not the problem, although I was a symptom of it, no doubt.

My mum would say that she over indulged me and loved me too much, but would make no mention of the emotional abuse or the trauma that it caused. I don’t even think she is capable of seeing it as abuse. That has always been a sore point for me. Surely she must know.

My siblings have also said that they don’t understand why I’m doing this, that our childhood was great and that I’ve nothing to feel aggrieved over. On the surface they are convincing, but scratch a little deeper and they carry their own scars.

Because it's what's going on in their hearts and minds and not what we have done. So we can't repair it

Understand this and devastating though it is, it will free you from the extra burden of feeling guilty for something you have not done

You could look at it like this, and remain stuck in your situation. Or you could put your pride to one side and really look at yourself and your relationship with your daughter through a pair of fresh eyes, if you have the courage to do so.

Let me be clear, no one wants to make themselves motherless. It is unnatural, painful and a last resort.

Any loving messages that I had sent to my mum, photographs of “good times”, memories etc should not be used as “proof” of a sudden, unforeseen change in me (to be attributed to outside influences). I just couldn’t pretend anymore. It’s as simple as that.

As I have said, my mum would say that she loved me too much - but clearly not enough to take responsibility for her part in our estrangement.

Oh Bradfordlass73 .... Thank you so much for taking the trouble to post.
Reading it has been the only thing that has made any sense to me today.

X

BradfordLass73 -- "Why, if we were such terrible parents, did they not just leave home the minute they could and cease contact then?"

That question has been asked and answered repeatedly. Most of Us who end with No Contact do so when We realize that what Our 'normal' was, was abuse. When We can't get the abuse to stop? We walk...

"If you really had been such a terrible parent that your child is justified in 'divorcing' you - why did they leave it until now?" -- Often when We have children of Our own We realize and see play out the same dysfunction and abuse that was dealt to Us as minors and refuse to let the cycle repeat. So when the cycle starts and the AC try to set boundaries, the grand-parent often challenges those 'rules' and when they do? What option do AC have to "make" their parent do anything that they don't want?

"The short answer is, 'they don't do it to us', they do it because they want to make some sort of point." -- Yes. And "the point" is that WE are the parents NOW. Not You. If you don't want to be a grand-parent the way the parent(s) wants? Then 'the point' might have to be made with No Contact.

Why do our adult children do this to us?

The short answer is, 'they don't do it to us', they do it because they want to make some sort of point.

Or they can't cope with normal parent-adult child relationships any longer.
Or they harbour resentments for things which are beyond our understanding and sometimes even our knowledge.

Or they are negatively influenced by a partner or friend and allow that influence to feed their own negativities.

In all these cases, parents who have been estranged assume the guilt ("What have I done wrong?") and suffer hugely.

It took me many years and a lot of advice from my younger son, bless him, before I let go of the idea that I was at fault when my beloved elder son decided I was no longer his mother. That's almost 20 years ago now.

No parent is perfect, we all have regrets, have made mistakes but if you can look honestly into your own heart and behaviour and say you were not horribly abusive, then let go of the guilt and acccept that in most cases, estrangement is the problem not of the parent who's been cast off, but the 'child' themselves.

If you really had been such a terrible parent that your child is justified in 'divorcing' you - why did they leave it until now?

In my case, I was having lovely, long chatty phone calls with my boy only days before he decided to cut me from his life when he was 35!

Why, if we were such terrible parents, did they not just leave home the minute they could and cease contact then?

Why, in some cases, are there good times/messages/texts etc ? Then it all changes.

Because it's what's going on in their hearts and minds and not what we have done. So we can't repair it.

Understand this and devastating though it is, it will free you from the extra burden of feeling guilty for something you have not done.

Poly75 . I am so sorry to here of your problems with your DD. I am sure reading other gransnetters squabbling amongst themselves is not particularly helpful. I have no real advice but a few ideas spring to mind. How old was she when you and her father split up? What was the reason and could she in any way, either rightly or wrongly, blame you? Perhaps now she is a parent herself she is aware of how differently situations appear when your own life changes. Maybe she feels guilty about her behaviour then and seeing you reminds her of that guilt. Did she and her father remain in touch and could he have been feeding her mind with his view of what went on and is affecting her opinion of you? Something else that crossed my mind. How well do you know your DDs husband? Are they as happy as they appear. Maybe they are not happy and she does not want you to see her repeat your mistakes. Do you like him? Did you have doubts about him and try to warn her? Or, far more worrying, is he responsible for the estrangement? Is he calling the shots and encouraging her to stay away from you? This is now recognised as a form of abuse. Whatever happens, I wish you luck and hope you find peace and acceptance.

What I meant to add is that it is for very common for parents and grandparents to clash. In a healthy relationship this is talked through with the parents telling the grandparents how they are making them feel and the grandparents respecting the parents decisions. In a toxic relationship the grandparents fight back with "I raised 2 kids" etc. and try to force things to go their way.

This may not be what happened with you but it definitely feels like something went wrong here if at first you were allowed to babysit.

Polly75, It really does sound like communication has broken down. Good news though you aren't estranged yet so there is hope. If she allowed you to babysit at first, but now won't then something happened. This happened with my parents, at first they were allowed to babysit but after they constantly boundary stomped and refused to listen to what we said, I quit work so they wouldn't babysit again (they hate us for this).

Its actually quite common for this to happen and not necessarily the signs of a toxic person or estrangement coming. It broke down with my parents because I tried to say hey lay newborn on their back, not belly/side and they REFUSED. They refused to stop giving 12 month old hotdogs every day.

In my due date group there are many clashes happening now between parents and grandparents. Grandparents trying to tell parents how to raise their kids. Have you ever used the phrase "I raised 2 kids I know what I'm doing"? Worst line ever.

My best advice is to have a happy life and focus on yourself. Don't see yourself as a victim but move forward and do what makes you happy.

I am alone now and she is fully aware of my loneliness, but she does not seem to care
As hurtful as it is, children are not responsible for our happiness. To put the responsibility of our happiness onto another person is a toxic relationship. Try not to complain / need so much. I love my in-laws yet we only see them maybe once a month. We're busy with work, kids, interests, friends and so are they. We talk on the phone a lot or even video chat (this might be a good solution for you to have more regular contact if they are very busy).

Also no one deserves to be called names or given the silent treatment. It is okay for you to enforce your own boundaries (ie if you call me a name, you can leave my house). Swearing in general isn't bad.

I hope things get better for you.

Yes, it does get wearing when certain posters show up on a thread to contribute nothing but a rude/dismissive comment or a laughing smiley to someone else’s rude/dismissive comment.

And then declare that it is too tiring for them to deal with being confronted regarding their rude/dismissive comment.

If it is too tiring for you, perhaps refrain from making such comments. I don’t know, just an idea.

MissA

Its wearing to get something wrong, say something rude and be called out on it?

I like the whole stomp off instead of apologising, very adult lol

I haven't said your experiences have no meaning.
I will say, though, that these threads do become very wearing, so that'll be all from me.

I admit I'm confused...

Because OP isn't my 'mom' a story regarding my 'mom' and how she behaves/behaved has no meaning?

I would think hearing how an abuser operates would be a great way to avoid falling into those questionable behaviors for other people... Sort of "words of warning"???

I was making general observations based on my experiences and I have heard EP's dismiss Issendai's writings in that manner.

*How is it the most reasonable response?

Well, it seems the most reasonable response to me

So HolyHannah addressing another poster on the subject of swearing and maturity elicits a response of “But the OP isn’t your mother”? She wasn’t talking about the OP or her situation. How is it the most reasonable?

You can, of course, put your own personal slant on it

I don’t understand. HolyHannah was addressing another poster on the subject of swearing and maturity which again, had nothing to do with the OP or her situation. I haven’t put a slant on anything.

It is an incredibly dismissive thing to say to her and I see it done often.

Well, it seems the most reasonable response to me.
You can, of course, put your own personal slant on it.

Is “But X isn’t your mother” such a stock response to HolyHannah now that it doesn’t even matter if it is relevant or not?

MissAdventure -- My reply to was riskybusiness around the subject of swearing and maturity.