Putting up with the unacceptable

Ironflower -- "It's really sad when others make claims of being the victim (when they're not) because it really takes away from the real victims." -- This x1000.

"The real GPs out there that have their grandchildren being used as pawns are doubted because of the abusive grandparents claiming that their children staying away is using grandchildren as pawns." -- Again 100% agree. I cannot imagine how disheartening that must be for GP's that truly are being extorted and manipulated using the grand-children because false victims muddy the waters.

Certainly my 'parents' and in-laws would agree that's what husband and I are doing...

Ironflower and Summerlove -- I think at the point that someone actually looks at you and says, "You are abusive." there is probably a LOT questionable about your behavior and you should do some serious self-reflecting or seeking a therapist to understand WHY someone would say that to you.

If someone just walks out of your life? That might be a strong clue that there is something 'going on' and perhaps some more self-reflection is required.

I agree (as it's the truth in my case) that most No Contact situations are not the parents "using the kids as pawns".

I just find that people often use someone of using the children as pawns whether or not that’s actually the case

It's really sad when others make claims of being the victim (when they're not) because it really takes away from the real victims.
Example false claims of assault, abuse. This really hurts real victims who are then not believed. The real GPs out there that have their grandchildren being used as pawns are doubted because of the abusive grandparents claiming that their children staying away is using grandchildren as pawns

I agree with you ironflower.

If I were told I was being abusive, I hope I’d be able to be introspective. Many will dig in their heels.

Some people do not like being told “no”.

I just find that people often use someone of using the children as pawns whether or not that’s actually the case. In your aunts situation, it absolutely sounds that way, but day today, I feel most of the time it’s the parents doing what they feel is the best for their children.

So who Is right? Who makes the call?

If someone tells you you are abusive, gives examples and links them to checklists of abuse, then you been abusive. This however doesn't ever mean you are a bad person. We all have flaws. A coworker realised he had been gaslighting his gf when shown one of these checklists. He apologised so bad and promised to never do it again. It shook him.

It depends on our reactions. If your reaction is 'you're too sensitive,' 'be a man' then you are still being abusive.

This goes both ways too. AC can be abusive to parents as well.

What if I say I’m treating you fairly, and you think I’m abusive? You think you are protecting children, I think you are using them as pawns.

Exactly this. Who is right. It doesn't help that the definition of abuse changes. Some people from older generations (my parents included) believe that if you weren't beaten or molested, then you weren't abused. Younger generations are more likely to stand up for their child's emotional health as well. It is seen as just as important as physical health.

I believe that if someone thinks your behaviour is abusive (even if you don't) then you would be in the wrong. Some people think smacking kids is fine, some consider it abuse. If the parent think its abuse, then it is not for you to do. I also don't think this is the same scenario at all as my great aunt that was forced to give all of her money to son and dil to see grandkids. There was never an abuse accusation.

Many abusers don't consider themselves abusive (or they think that they deserve it). My parents certainly don't think they were abusive (because abuse is beating your kids).

If your AC is telling you that you are abusive and gives examples (not lying to give you a bad name) then you need to examine your behaviour. It doesn't matter if you don't think what you did is abusive, they are telling you that you have hurt them.

Here is just one checklist of mental abuse www.healthline.com/health/signs-of-mental-abuse

Starblaze

Summerlove I would see it as a parents responsibility to not let people who are engaging in negative behaviour around their children. I wouldn't see anything wrong there.

For example "if you don't stop this behaviour which is harming me and may harm my children, either indirectly by harming me or directly by them witnessing that behaviour, then I can't let you see them"

What if I say I’m treating you fairly, and you think I’m abusive?
You think you are protecting children, I think you are using them as pawns.

Most people would agree that the children in this scenario are not being used as pawns, somebody who is abusive and doesn’t view themselves that way will absolutely say that they are in fact being used as pawns.

So who Is right? Who makes the call?

All normal parents are flawed; all normal people are flawed and it's nice to see the distinction being made between normal/flawed parents and abusive parents.

Self reflection may result in for example an EP seeing that their relationship with their child had negative consequences, resulting in estrangement, or being abused by their AC when they became an adult.

On the other hand self reflection may result in for example, an EP seeing that their relationship with their child flawed, as all relationships are, was not the reason they became estranged or a reason for the abuse they are receiving.

I've read posts from EAC where it's been said they did their best to have a relationship with the parent who abused them, and have never felt the need to roll my eyes.

There was nothing in your post @ 17.35 that made me touchy GagaJo. You have honestly shared your story which should be respected just as anyone else's should be respected.

It is not for us to judge especially if that judgement stems from our own biased position, based purely on our own experience.

Holyhannah I definitely struggled to find words to express myself there. Also agree with you completely

Starblaze -- I too was trying to find a good reply for GagaJo.

It is difficult to self-reflect and see where your own actions could have had consequences and I found the honesty heartening.

GagaJo -- Normally the statement of, "I did my best." makes me 'eye roll' but given your personal reflection I think you very likely did which is obviously truly better then a downright abusive parent like Starblaze and I grew up with.

There is a large span between being an abusive parent and a flawed/"normal parent".

GagaJo I found your comment kinda lovely in a way. Not all women are maternal and it's very brave of you to say all that.

My mum was abusive, mostly emotional and neglect of my physical needs etc growing up. Her father was an alcoholic and verbally abusive and her mum struggled with a lot and was very shut down. That's probably one factor. Another is traumatic things that happened to my mum outside of the family which is another factor. Then there was not a lot of support for my mum available as other family were well off and she wouldn't have anything to do with them because she didn't feel good enough. That's only what I do know.

Many factors made my mum. That's only my situation though

I agree that there will be parents who have unfairly been accused of using their children when they've been wanting to protect them GagaJo. Just as there will be parents/GP's who have been unfairly accused of inappropriate behaviour as a reason for not being allowed to see their GC.

In both of the aforementioned the result is that rightly or wrongly, GP's and their GC are being denied their relationship.

Then we have GP's who are not being denied the relationship they have with their GC, but are expected to 'jump through hoops' or have it taken away.

Three different scenarios, two of which result in GP's having no contact with their GC and one seeing GP's manipulated and their GC used as pawns.

This is a touchy point I'm about to make. It applies to me (and maybe some of you, too, BUT please be aware, I'm not directing this at anyone, other than myself).

One of the questions that came to me while thinking about this topic for this thread is HOW our AC came to be the way they are. I don't mean a specific issue such as parents being cruel or denying love, but HOW children develop in a way that encourages them to think it is acceptable to manipulate their parents and use their children as bargaining chips.

I am aware that I was very flawed as a parent. I didn't really want children and only had a child because my husband wanted a family. He wanted two, but I drew the line at one when his alcoholism became obvious. I've always been bookish and academically inclined and didn't enjoy having to be the only active parent (despite wanting children, ex husband was lazy and left it all to me). Financially, my daughter had everything she could have wanted, at least until the divorce. After the divorce I made a whole bunch of mistakes but also tried to over compensate for the divorce. I even protected her from the truth about her dad until she was old enough and saw it for herself.

I also think that she is a mix of personality like her paternal aunt and grandmother. It would certainly explain a lot about her. BUT I'm also very aware this could be using this as an excuse to let myself off the hook.

Ultimately, I did my best. It wasn't always great because I wasn't a natural mother. I'm a teacher by temperament, not a mum. At the end of the day, my grandson is here and I love him and as I've said before, am determined to try to help him have a good life.

As posters converse, and threads evolve, it’s unrealistic to expect every post to address the “topic under discussion”.

This is a mixed board with both EPs and EAC and will attract different perspectives.

I imagine some EAC will have been accused of treating their parents badly or “using the kids as pawns” and will interpret the thread in this way.

Everyone is (should be) allowed to express their views, based on their own interpretation, freely...

The topic under discussion is P's/GP's who tolerate unacceptable behaviour in order to maintain the relationship they have with their GC.

It isn't about P's wanting to protect their children, it's about P's using their children to get what they want from their children's GP's.

Asking for appropriate behaviour isn't using children as pawns or forcing eggshell walking MamaBear.

Protecting children from a toxic and abusive grandparent is not the same as a GP being denied their GC because of the abusive and sometimes toxic behaviour of their AC and/or their partner.

Summerlove I would see it as a parents responsibility to not let people who are engaging in negative behaviour around their children. I wouldn't see anything wrong there.

For example "if you don't stop this behaviour which is harming me and may harm my children, either indirectly by harming me or directly by them witnessing that behaviour, then I can't let you see them"

MamaBear20

My MIL has accused me of using my kids as pawns against her, but from my perspective I’m keeping them safe from a toxic and abusive grandparent. I’ve never asked her for anything other than to stop behaving so badly with the tantrums she throws when she doesn’t get her way. How could she interpret that as me using my kids as pawns?

This is what I dont understand, in your example you are asking for good behaviour. I don’t see that as using the kids as pawns

In ironflowers aunts example, I do.

However, is asking for appropriate behaviours using the kids as pawns? Forcing eggshells? What is the line?

I totally understand that GagaJo and it must 'help' when there's already an established relationship with the GC concerned.

In our case, we'd had very little contact with our GS and he was just 8 months old the last time we saw him. We did ask to see him but with no reciprocal communication there was nothing we could do.

The thing is, just because a family are estranged, that kind of behaviour from whoever is the initiator will continue elsewhere.

If the perpetrator is an AC, taking yourself as a grandparent out of the equation helps you, but the GC will still be suffering it in a different form. I wouldn't want to lose contact for that reason also. My GS is my first priority.

It must feel like being 'caught between the devil and the deep blue sea' when the decision to put a stop to abuse from an AC may way result in estrangement and losing GC.

Ironflower I don't know how to put into words but your family history is so sad and interesting.

So many family patterns are repeated so when someone is able to stand up and say "It stops here with me" and makes a thorough attempt at making sure that happens I'm always in awe of them.

Your great aunt's sad story is what this thread is about Ironflower, P's who put up with their abusive AC so they don't lose their GC.

P's who have been estranged by their AC and consequently their GC aren't being subjected to the controlling, manipulative and abusive behaviour being discussed here.

Thanks for explaining ironflower. What a sad life for her!

My great aunt is maternal in relation so no relation to the mess that is my dad's family. I think my great aunt had trouble in that her husband also had an intellectual disability. He always wanted to give in. She has a daughter too but she unfortunately was unable to have children, even tried IVF. I guess it came down to they were her only grandchildren and she was very lonely. Guess who got pretty much everything when she sold her house.. eyeroll