Putting up with the unacceptable

@Sparkling thanks and yes I have a good relationship with my youngest child. You are right, he didn't go through the same things.
I think you're definitely right that most parents do their best with love in their hearts. I'm glad for you that you're not estranged from yours. I think it's normal for relationships to change, but I never saw it coming that my older ones would estrange. No doubt my vengeful ex had a lot to do with the eldest and the middle seems to copy his brother in many things.

....most parents do the best they can with love in their hearts beautifully out Sparkling and so true.

Sorry endorce not enforce.

Lava, How sad that youvare estranged from two of your sons, hopefully, in time your elder son will reconnect with you. Your middle son is much better away from your home. I feel sorry for his wife and son, she needs help from her family getting away from him before he ruins their life's any more. Enforce everything Smileless has said really. You have a younger son, is that relationship good? The younger one most likely didn't go through what the rider two with an abusive dad. You say your second marriage was good and that no doubt had a greater influence on him. I do hope you still have your husband to be a shoulder. Don't go blaming yourself, you have given everything, they are grown up, the balks in their court. You value yourself, try not to keep looking back at what ifs, enjoy the day, what you do have,look to the future when this awful Covid has gone. In the end our children leave and pursue their own paths. I am not estranged from my two, but see little of them, I have to tell myself quite often this won't change but confess when I see close knit families I wonder if I made them too independant and that's how they see me. It's hard getting everything right but I think most parents do the best they can with love in their hearts.

@Smileless Her family were against him and he said they beat him up. At the time he made it sound like they were victimizing him- but now I know he tried to stop them seeing the baby! Some of them had driven hundreds of miles! I'm absolutely devastated that he took a week old baby away from his Mum. His view was that her family were dangerous to the baby, but I think that was his Mental Health rather than a fact. They had driven a long way to visit them but he did not want them to hold the baby. He told me on the phone that they were dirty and dangerous to the baby, but they were abroad at the time so I wasn't there . I even wondered if he had some form of postnatal depression ( if that's even possible?) as he seemed to have severe anxiety about the baby's wellbeing- but didn't do rational things.

I have never met her family, but I know they had concerns about him. I would think that she must now be realising that it wasn't just her family he didn't get along with and that he actually gets along with no one. Hopefully he gets some help and things change.

OMG how awful, she must have been beside herself with worry. I can feel my fingers tingling with anger. I can only imagine what I'd have done if my D's husband did that to her, her baby and our GC.

Probably a good thing I was never put in that position. Presumably her parents, like you are now, didn't want to 'make waves' and make the situation any worse.

There just don't appear to be any answers unless she removes herself and the child from this abusive relationship.

I've pm'd you.

Thanks for the confirmation Smileless, I really hope my middle son will get the help he needs. Unfortunately I can not do anymore than I have done and we are at a stage where anything I do that's kind is massively disrespected. I am relieved he's not speaking to me in a way because the one way relationship and all the verbal abuse was grinding me down.

I do miss my GS and hope that things can in time be resolved. I don't expect a reconciliation with my ES as I believe his father has coercive control over him and he is also married to a controlling wife!

I feel sorry for my DIL. She has sent me some messages but I think something is being lost in translation. I am able to understand some of what she says, like she doesn't like anger and wants family harmony. I think she will do anything my son says because she is scared he will take the baby. He already took him away when he was a week old because he didn't want HER parents to meet him for the first time. I only found that out last month...Poor girl, she has no one in this country apart from us- and him. But he is very jealous and controlling, so is unlikely to allow her to talk to anyone- and because of covid they won't have opportunities to mix at all.

No, you can't fix this Lava only your son can and in order to do so, he needs to accept that he has a problem and seek the help that he needs.

I think it's extremely likely that his father has, and continues to poison your son against you. It's a common theme with abusers. They don't like their 'victims' to be around those who may be able to help them see that how they're being treated is wrong.

In your son's case, his father it seems wants him to be just like him, for your son to have coercive control over his own family, just as he did. Another form of abuse.

It's a shame but understandable that your d.i.l. is unable to remove herself and her son from this coercive and abusive relationship. That may be enough to make your son take a good hard long look at himself. The prospect of losing his wife and son maybe what he needs to seek help.

Hi Smileless, it's sad but even with covid, there has been no contact with my eldest son. He is close to his dad though, who hates me for escaping his coercive control and has spread lies about me. I would not be surprised if he poisoned my son against me as this is the sort of thing he would do.

I feel it's nature over nurture. I escaped that abusive relationship with young boys, who I didn't want to grow up with that example of how to treat a woman. Ive done my best and they have a stepdad that's been a good role model too, but despite it all my other son is really controlling. He's hit his last two girlfriends. I doubt his wife knows this as he met and married her abroad.

I know, it's not good. I just don't know what to do about it. I am not missing being attacked verbally every day. It didn't matter what kind thing I did for him, he was aggressive and abusive. It almost felt like the more kind I was, the more abusive he got. He told me he didn't respect me and it showed. When I asked him why, he only said "because you're divorced" He does blame me that he's not close to his Dad, but he doesnt realise that he already wasn't close to him when we left because his Dad idolised his elder brother (and still does) I think a part of him realises it, but is lashing out. He must be in a lot of pain, but has refused to engage with therapy and blames me for things which he is actually doing himself ( and I am not!) Projecting, I guess. I'm sad for the way the relationship is, but it's become one sided and I don't know how to fix it.

I've been doing all the kind things and giving, he's been abusive and taking. But now he's not living here I think he's sulking. I just feel I can't fix it and can't cope with the abusiveness either.

It's good to see you back Lavazza1st but upsetting to know that nothing has changed with one of your son's and your relationship with your other son has deteriorated.

It must have been a very difficult decision to ask him to move out with wife but living with some one who is abusive and demanding is intolerable.

Your poor d.i.l., living in a coercive controlling relationship. There's a lot pining on their social worker being able to help in this situation which isn't good for your d.i.l. or GC.

I'm so sorry you are having to go through this. The fear of becoming estranged from this son, having already been estranged by his brother must be over powering.

Great post Smileless.
I havent posted on here for a long time, but the son I wrote about then never did get back in touch, it's been a year and a half now.
My other son lived here with his wife for 8 months and it did grind me down as he was abusive and demanding. Eventually I insisted they move out , but he is now not speaking to me. He has mental health issues and a social worker is involved, also was put on presciption meds that made him aggressive. He is very controlling of his wife and reads all her messages. She has no one in this country apart from us. I was hoping that they would be so much happier after getting their own place, but my son was more hostile than ever so we left (last friday) and haven't been back.

I do miss my Grandson. But it isn't going to help him hearing his Dad be aggressive either. Hopefully their social worker can help sort them out as I didn't want to lose another child and another Grandchild...

I think you have made the best choice for your GC nananet and done all that you can to break this cycle of abuse

nananet that must have been an incredibly difficult decision. Children are emotional sponges. I hope that one day things change for the better.

Furthermore and importantly, my gc will no longer be witnessing their mothers treatment of me, a point I made to my AC, that if I continued to accept it they would think that behaviour by their mother was okay and quite possibly follow her example, the cycle would continue. I hope in making the choice I have I am doing the best I can for my gc who mean the world to me.

Someone has made a comment that by taking myself out of the situation my gc will suffer in another way.
No. By removing myself I stopped the cycle of abuse that has spanned the generations and hopefully protected my youngest gc from the emotional abuse his older sister began to show signs of - having to deal with a tense situation between myself and their mother. Her little mind was in turmoil.
There are two other sets of gp. My AD is now reliant on them for 'childcare' as she'd call it and I suspect her attitude will have had to change, hopefully for the better. There is also a child minder I was told was like a gp, so my gc have a good support network and are no longer under any pressure to deal with things they couldn't possibly understand.

It took a great deal of courage nananet for you to stand up for yourself at the risk of losing "everything and all you built over a decade with your grandchildren in the blink of an eye".

I'm so sorry that your worse fears have been realised.

Your GC will I'm sure always remember the relationship they had with you and there's every chance that when they are old enough they'll be in touch.

Who knows how much damage your AD may have done to the relationship with her own children, by denying them their GM. It may well be something she comes to regret.

There cones a point when enough is enough and the constant bullying, disrespect and impounded worthlessness and demeaning becomes too much to bear and with what little self respect and dignity remains you stand up and say 'no more'.
And you lose everything and all you built over a decade with your grandchildren in the blink of an eye.
I've sent a beautiful bouquet of flowers, presents through lockdown for my grandchildren all unacknowledged.
It's pure luck that I know my gc are okay.
It had to be done and I actually think my AD enjoys and feels I deserve the hurt and suffering I endure and in so many words has said as much.

Gransnet posts about family relationships show how very various and individualistic these are among British families.

In traditional societies the proper traditional behaviours steer behaviour, not individuals' feelings.

I don't agree that Kate's friends are "competing for their own victim-hood" or that any GP's who put up with the appalling behaviour of an AC, so they can maintain their relationship with their GC, are either.

In cases such as these, the GP's and the children are all victims of the parents controlling, manipulative and abusive behaviour.

So often on the estrangement threads, especially if GP's are considering going to court to get contact with their GC, we are told that it's up to the parents, that the children are their legal responsibility. So let's not when it suits, absolve parents of that responsibility in a case such as this.

Kate1949 -- "We know a couple who are treated appallingly by their two married daughters, despite doing everything for them. I have heard the girls speak to them like they are dirt. They put up with it as they are afraid of not seeing their grandchildren."

Unfortunately that might make your friends co-dependent or enablers... None of which is healthy for the family dynamic and most of all the minor children/grand-children caught in the middle. If the parent's are dysfunctional/abusive toward the grand-parents and the Grands accept/normalize abuse towards THEM just to see their grand-children as 'normal'? All of the 'adults' are doing wrong to the minor children... None of the 'adults' are true victims and while they (the 'adults') are competing for their own victim-hood? The real/true victims/the children that get introduced to this drama? Ignored....

That's how the cycle of abuse works...

It would make mine boil too Kate, TBH it is doing and I don't even know your poor friends.

It's very sad Smileless. Not my business but it makes my blood boil.

That's terrible Kate but unfortunately not uncommon.

We know a couple who are treated appallingly by their two married daughters, despite doing everything for them. I have heard the girls speak to them like they are dirt. They put up with it as they are afraid of not seeing their grandchildren.

Presumably if parents are keeping their children away from their GP's because they're worried about their safety, they wont be demanding financial assistance, that things the children need are paid for by the GP's or that GP's provide free child care.

When these things are being demanded and the GP's are told or it's implied that they wont see their GC unless they comply, it's a clear case of the children being used as pawns and the abuse of the GP's.