Domestic Violence from kids to parents

Yes, let's not derail this thread by disengenuously forcing justification for estrangement or proof they can parent effectively themselves from people who have or had mental health issues.

Our children aren't violent or emotionally unhealthy because we broke the cycle and got help.

I hope that the family you mentioned get some real support Chewy.
It sounds incredibly disturbing behaviour.

hugshelp

To all the people who have suffered painful upbringings, and many of us have, I feel your pain, and I hope one day you find the resolution you are looking for. I think, however, we may have derailed the thread again, more than enough.

I suspect you're right hugshelp. Pity, it would have been an interesting subject in its own right.

I feel uncomfortable and I'm not sure what I read specifically that caused it but I need to say this.

I have no doubt my mum had mental health issues. Some of the stories she told me of her childhood were awful.

If mental health issues were any kind of cause for the way she treated me, she'd be forgiven and I'd just love her more for doing the hard job of parenting with that extra burden.

My mum is abusive. Deliberately, maliciously, lying and scheming and treating her children extremely differently. She knew she was doing it.

Some mental health issues may impact children but children who are loved and wanted have the resilience to cope with times mum is sad or anxious or cross. Because a good mum just uses those as teaching moments on how to deal with those emotions.

I have nothing but respect for people who have had trauma and are working on fixing that trauma whether that's therapy, or medication or counselling.

That's the polar opposite of my mum and her determination to project herself as perfect and innocent by choosing one child to take out her negative feelings on.

The proof that she did that is when I went to her and said "you are hurting me mum" she refused to see that i was being treated the same way she didn't like growing up... She told me I was imagining it and when as a last ditch effort to save our relationship I offered joint counseling she laughed in my face.

Iam64, no worries!
I commented on the Karen thing myself (sexist and ageist insult).
To be honest, there is much in this thread that I have struggled to keep up with and understand.

hugshelp and FannyC, apologies for continuing to be off the subject of elder abuse but I want to quickly respond to a comment I've just caught up with.
The 'Karen' meme raises all kinds of important areas of discussion.
It's clear from HolyHannah's response to my criticism of 'Karen' as a term of abuse, that my comment reminded me of her mother. The fact I may have made a comment here that caused you to think of your mother doesn't mean I did that intentionally, or that I seek to deny or minimise your experiences.

Yes, everyone has a right to be safe in their own homes sparkling

hugshelp yes, it's rather a pity as it raised a very neglected and very important issue (elder abuse).

To all the people who have suffered painful upbringings, and many of us have, I feel your pain, and I hope one day you find the resolution you are looking for. I think, however, we may have derailed the thread again, more than enough.

If you have a child with severe emotional and behavioural issues, have tried everything to get help, then get to the stage that you have no life, you can't cope anymore, it's been taken over and it's one long battle, they get to adulthood, then physical abuse occurs, are you just supposed to take it? Or end it? These abused parents need help, they have a right to be safe in their own homes.

Lavazza1st -- "I know that if a child refuses to engage with CAMHS they can't do much to help the child." -- I'm sorry I missed this statement you made in concurrence/agreement with Chewbacca.

Is it your view/belief/perspective that a child who "refuses to engage with CAMHS" (or any other agency) are somehow to blame for their situation/continued abuse?

Child abuse victims don't report/confirm abuse to 'authorities' because they know/have been trained that they are never believed and if they do tell/reveal the behaviors of their abusers honestly? The system/society has no where/anyplace "better" to put an abused child. So back to your abuser you go AND now they have more power with which to abuse... "See? See? NOBODY believes You. If I was a truly 'bad'/abusive parent then the "higher powers" would believe You."

hugshelp -- What rosecarmel posted on Sat 17-Oct-20 22:59:21 is basically exactly how I feel and I think I have explained myself as clearly as I am able on the 'Karen culture' topic.

Lavazza1st -- I didn't believe my diagnosis of C-PTSD at first and I was in denial of how the brainwashing of being Scapegoated from birth changed the perspective with which I viewed the world.

All I knew was I had suicidal thoughts by age 10 and I felt like I didn't belong anywhere. My 'mom' told me she loved me and I believed her. That's what Scapegoat abuse does. Always in the back of my mind was the utter confusion growing up with someone who claims to love you but acts the opposite. Does a child believe the words/what they are told or what is demonstrated? Well, I was taught that parents don't lie so if 'mom' said she loved me then how she treated me was what love 'looked like'.

So you learn that abusive behavior is 'loving' regardless of how bad it makes you feel. This is why abusive victims often end up with abusive adult partners.

It wasn't until I got educated on Narcissistic abuse and what it looks like that I could see how she was and behaved. My loving 'mom' was actually abusive. That was devastating blow to accept and then the fact that she didn't/doesn't care enough to do anything to improve the relationship is a secondary blow.

Abusive parents let their victims down over and over and over. This is why adult to adult abuse is not the same as adult to child abuse. There is no power differential where one adult can set the rules for the other of what is and is not healthy/okay for both sides. Both adults get to decide what they see as okay. A child has no say/power over their adult parent if they disagree with the parent. Adults have the ability to walk away/stay away from what they believe is unhealthy. Where/what can a child do when their parent is abusing them/in total control of their existence?

I know all about NPD. You asked what she COULD DO to improve things "in the now". I know she is incapable because she's a Narcissist and two, by her own words she has said she refuses to anything which proves her NPD.

@HolyHannah that's not how narcissists tick. For her to admit to being less than perfect would cause all sorts of issues. My mother also has NPD and my therapist really helped me to come to terms with this and accept it.

It might be more realistic to accept she will never accept what she didn't do right and give up any attempts to make her be accountable because a true narc will never admit they are less than perfect. Yes people with NPD probably do save up an arsenal of insults to bring down people they see as a threat to their ego.

I do see why you walked away Holy Hannah. It's better than expecting her to change, because she wont. Even better still is to read up on NPD so you know every single trick in the book. They are surprisingly infantile, really and always tell on themselves when you know the signs.

I don't really get how "Karen" got into this thread? I must have missed a bit somewhere.

HolyHannah I don't know if your MH health problems make you unable to parent properly. I hope that's not the case. I certainly wouldn't assume that everyone who has MH problems is unable to parent their own children, with appropriate help if they need it.

However, as someone whose mum was an abusive and dangerous schizophrenic I know that health professionals often do not intervene when they should. I have also have a friend whose husband was a schizophrenic - he almost killed their children and did kill himself, and the wife could not get him the help he needed.

So I can say from experience that there are cases where intervention is needed and doesn't happen. A caring parent of an adult child with mental health problems will try very hard to get them their adult child the help they need and to protect any grand children.

But yes, there are also people who will use any mental health issues as a way to push their agenda forward rather than support the one with those health issues. Historically people could lock their relatives away in a mental asylum when they weren't even mentally ill. Women were much more often the victims of this.

If your parents used your MH issues against you it's a fair bet they would have used something else against you if they didn't have that lever. But there are other cases where people with MH issues do not realise they need help.

As for the Karen things, nobody is accusing you of coining it. However there are lots of unpleasant bigoted terms around that I didn't coin that I'm sure you would call me out if I used. Tying behaviour to a specific type of woman who happens to be white and of a certain age and socio-economic group is no less bigoted than tarring all people of any other group with equally unacceptable behaviour. And no I'm not of that socio-economic group. From wiki "As of 2020, the term was increasingly being used as a general-purpose term of disapproval for middle-aged white women." Research further and you will see a lot of division as to the origins and meaning of Karen. But that is the problem, using a term that can be interpreted in more than one way will convey ambiguous messages. If you want to call out a certain kind of behaviour, name the behaviour clearly, I would say. And I can't help feeling sorry for anyone who happens to be called Karen. Thank you to both star and Iam for your helpful input on this too."

Sorry too tired to read any more of the thread, just came down for painkillers and popped my head in while they kick in.

Lavazza1st -- Yes. My diagnosis of C-PTSD due to Narcissistic abuse does absolutely high-light what her MHI is.

The reason she doesn't react like a healthy parent is because she isn't/wasn't one. It was up to her to deal with what her made her the way she is. She was the adult and if her own abuse made her into a Narcissist then she was the one who had to deal with it. Her way of 'dealing' was blaming/abusing/Scapegoating Me while praising my 'perfect' Golden sister.

"Even if she did know, what can she do now? She cannot time travel back and be a different person or put things right." -- Well, she could own the behavior. She could acknowledge that it didn't merely hurt me but caused psychological damage and that she is responsible as the adult in the situation. She could apologize and in understanding what parts/behaviors of what she says/does are problematic and promise to stop doing those things. She could also (if we were in contact) if I said, "Hey. Stop. You are doing 'that' again..." and instead of getting pouty and snotty and claiming, "I'm not allowed to say anything!" she could say, "Oops... Sliding back into old habits. I apologize. Please keep reminding me when I am pushing boundaries." She could be willing to listen to what I am saying for once...

So yeah... There is A LOT she could do to improve/repair our relationship. As I said she is willing to do NOTHING. She thinks she's perfect and any hint that you do not agree is you attacking her. And when you 'attack' her? You get both barrels back/more abuse. That's why I walked away.

The more I objected/tried to stand-up for myself/against her abuse, the more she would try to hurt me. When I started getting healthier I said to her, "I think you'll find it's a lot harder to hurt me these days then it used to be..." Her confident reply was, "Well, I could say things to hurt you..."

And that's when I knew she actually did "save up" 'things'/events/memories etc. with the purpose/intent of using it later to hurt me. That's the woman I walked away from.

@HolyHannah no I don't know your story, sorry. I can identify with what you are saying about your mother refusing to help you or listen to you. My Mother also did that, so I dealt with everything alone. It has taken me many years to allow people in and ask for help because I was so conditioned to deal with problems alone. She did not believe in illness so I almost died of a burst appendix. My mother was often blank, staring into space and never wanted to talk about anything. She would alternate between being fun, screaming abuse or being spaced out. I only found out in my later years that she had been sectioned and had mental health issues herself. I don't know why she hid it, but it did affect her parenting and it would have helped to know why she was unresponsive to me as a kid. I also have MH issues and so do a few of my kids.

I am hearing what you're saying. It's not "good" to ignore your child's cry for help. It's also not a normal parental response, so I would question whether your Mother has MH issues herself? Like we were saying before, many things can be hereditary.

I didn't have contact with my mother for a few years, but I have managed to forgive her and accept her as she is. I couldn't have done this before I was ready. I have never told her I had issues with her because I think it would hurt her and not achieve anything. Even if she did know, what can she do now? She cannot time travel back and be a different person or put things right. I would be guilty of upsetting a very old lady if I did mention anything. All we have is the present, I feel psychology helped me a lot to understand and accept- it is what it is.

I should also add, if my Autism had been diagnosed earlier I could have learned to manage the condition much sooner. If I hadn't been let down by the adults around me in that regard I wouldn't have had to "make up for lost time" as an adult.

So I have had to try to undo all that damage on my own, finding my own resources etc. and part of that healing is to put My family first in a way that was never done for Me as a child.

Does holding other parents accountable for their children and how they run their home make me bad in some way? If your child needs shoes, the parent should know to buy/make/provide shoes. If a child is "acting out" it is equally up to the parent to figure out what to do to stop the behavior... Up to and including modifying their own behavior. How they get there? Well, they are an adult age, in possession of enough faculties to be deemed fit to care for a minor child(ren) so I assume that person is able to figure out adult solutions to their problems.

Is holding adults accountable for their behavior and how it impacts their children (minor or other-wise) wrong?

Lavazza1st -- You don't know my back-story but the brief version is, if therapy was an Olympic event, I'd be a multiple gold-medal winner.

Sorting through childhood abuse, the C-PTSD the abuse created and learning about my Autism all at the same time was why I was at the point of an emotional break-down.

""all parents mess up their kids" even and especially the ones who try not to." -- I disagree. I believe that parents who don't try to NOT "mess up their children" do so inadvertently. Those that actively try to NOT do the things that they know cause damage are far less likely to do so. My 'mom' didn't know or care if she was doing parenting in a way that was going to cause damage and she did a lot of it.

"They are not perfect, but they are the only parents I will ever have." -- "Not perfect" is not the problem. Everyone knows no one, anywhere is perfect. Imperfect/normal parenting doesn't cause C-PTSD in their children. My 'mom' was far past "not perfect". She was abusive. Abuse causes damage and she doesn't grasp that because, "I did my best. Children don't come with manuals. If I did hurt you I was having a 'bad day'/you did something that made me do what I did." She can't even get to, "I know you have issues that stem from the environment you grew up in. What can I do to help/assist in the now?"

What did I get as a reply? She made it clear she wasn't willing to do anything to help me in the present including even listening to what I had to say. What 'good' parent won't even listen when their child asks for help? That's the woman I walked away from.

@HolyHannah I hear your pain. I'm sure many things must be hereditary, yet people often blame. None of us can help our genetics, but we can get therapy and learn to function in the best ways possible for ourselves.
Its difficult because as a parent you do your best and yet you can see cracks in the way you were parented. Each generation thinks they can do better than the last and yet, we are all human and fail in different ways no matter how hard we try.
When I had therapy for some issues with my own childhood, my psychologist told me this: "all parents mess up their kids" even and especially the ones who try not to. It has helped me to forgive and find peace with my parents. They are not perfect, but they are the only parents I will ever have. If you haven't had therapy, I recommend it. Being a parent brings up all kinds of stuff about how you were parented.

HolyHannah

Chewbacca -- I'm Canadian and protecting myself and my family is really my only focus. I only really care about local laws that the people in my world try to manipulate to get their way.

My children are not being abused nor do they act out much beyond swearing so what systems are in place to support those that have physically aggressive children I cannot say.

Yes, BUT .. ?

You caring for your nuclear family sets an example, one where the focused.care is also shared via set example/s, via assimilation/osmosis-

Chewbacca -- I have mental healthy issues. I'm not going to apologize for prioritizing where I spend my emotional energy. Worrying about the well-being of all children is something I would like to see society as a whole work on. It's not all up to me how the world works so I make sure I look after my own first. Making sure they grow into mature, responsibly healthy adults is my goal.

If every child lived under my roof then I'd give them the same treatment as my own. I expect other parents to do the same with the children under their roof. It's their responsibility to seek out those services/resources if they have issues with their minor children.

@Chewbacca so true, especially now and from personal experience, I know that if a child refuses to engage with CAMHS they can't do much to help the child.

I hope they can be helped!

Lavazza1st -- "Surely some things are hereditary." -- Yes. Like my Autism. How my 'mom' reacted to my Autism is still on her. It wasn't my fault I was born Autistic. Learning how to manage my Autism/Autistic traits was something she as the parent/adult was responsible to learn. Instead she treated me with abuse and just because she was physically 'there' (she was a SAHM) she was very neglectful because all she did was blame Me for being 'the problem'. That didn't create any solutions.

I tried to tell her what would help me when I started getting healthier as an adult. I said to her, "You know I have MHI's. Would you like to know what you can do to assist me with those things?" her reply was, "No. Not really." So yeah. That sort of said all I needed to know and I basically stopped talking to her after that.

Your response surprises me HolyHannah, I thought you had a general interest in the wellbeing of children and young people and the facilities and support networks for both them and their families. Thanks for your answer anyway.