Domestic Violence from kids to parents

Chewbacca -- I'm Canadian and protecting myself and my family is really my only focus. I only really care about local laws that the people in my world try to manipulate to get their way.

My children are not being abused nor do they act out much beyond swearing so what systems are in place to support those that have physically aggressive children I cannot say.

@Bibbity re your comment "SN children used to be shipped off to institutions where they were more than likely physically, emotionally and sexually abused. But please do continue with how much better that was for everyone."

It wasn't better. It made a lot of people's lives a lot worse and then they got into a relationship and became parents.... My ex had that exact past, but hid most of it from me until I was in too deep. Unfortunately he was extremely damaged and abusive. His parents loved him, but couldn't cope with him and the school he went to couldn't deal with him either. I googled it and it was "independant" and unregistered at the time he went there, yet it was a school recieving government funds. The teachers were not proper teachers. It did not even claim to meet any of the children's educational needs in the report I read, in fact every question just had a line through it. So yes, the government were paying lots of money to keep these SN children away from society back in those days and it didn't help the kids involved at all, so I don't think that is the answer

Personally I feel I couldn't have loved my kids more. I tried to over compensate for him, I suppose. I was a stay at home parent and gave them all the love and attention I could. I've studied Child Psychology and was able to have good attachments with all of them. But despite my best efforts, one of them has ADHD and is abusive/ hostile.

I'm not saying I am perfect, obviously something has gone wrong somewhere- but I really did give them a lot of love and was always there for them, so I do wonder if some things like ADHD and behavioural disorders are genetic??? Mine were never out of my sight until they went to school, so they definitely weren't neglected. I think parents are blamed a lot for neglect, but not all are neglectful. Surely some things are hereditary.

My apologies HolyHannah, I'd mistakenly thought that you are from the USA. In any case, can you tell say what your country's strategies are for supporting families where there are incidences of child/young teenager attacks on their parents? Is there a strong support system already in place, with good referrals to the appropriate departments? And have the COVID lockdown shown any increase in the reported numbers of attacks due to families being forced into an unnaturally closed environment?

Chewbacca -- I'm not American. And I cannot speak for any country or what they are doing... I only know that whatever the issues are, it is up to adults to guide minor children towards solutions. Those solutions, to me, do not include more punishment/police involvement aimed towards the younger. I expect/believe it is up to adults to modify their behavior to get the resulting better/desired behavior from the child the adult wants.

My 'mom' and MiL want to be grandparents to Our children. They don't want to modify their behavior towards more positive so they are not getting the response/behavior they want from Us.

As others have said, children's behavior doesn't develop in a vacuum and adults not owning/understanding/believing that is part of the problem.

Me too Lavazza, I just hope that she accepts everything offered to them. But CAMHS, child psychologists and social services are so overstretched and under resourced and there has been an increase in demand for referrals, that I don't think it will be a quick response somehow. It would be a tragedy if the family didn't get the support they so desperately need and ended up being one of the statistics mentioned up thread. That's why I'm interested in knowing how other countries, such as the USA, are dealing with the effects of COVID lockdown on children and their behavioural and mental health within their families.

@Chewbacca I am SO glad that the woman who was drop kicked by her son has had the school step in. Even if she didn't want it, she definitely NEEDED that help.

HolyHannah if I remember correctly, you're in the USA? Earlier this evening, I posted some information about the 25% increase in reported cases of children and young teenagers who have have attacked their parents. The increase is, not surprisingly, due to the covid lockdown, where families are cooped up together for extended periods of time. Some of the attacks have involved police involvement. Can you tell me if there has been a similar increase in the USA and, if so, what are the measures that your country has in place to help children and their families?

The Psychological Power of Calling Someone a Karen
By Bella DePaulo, Ph

Karen used to be such an innocuous name. Not anymore. Now it’s an insult.

Karen is the entitled, officious middle-aged white woman who wants to speak to the manager. More ominously, she and Ken, her male counterpart, are racists. They are “unashamed exploiters of white entitlement.”

Have you heard about the woman in San Francisco who called the cops on a Filipino man who was stenciling “Black Lives Matter” in chalk on his own property? She was named Lisa, but she’s a Karen. So, too, is the most notorious Karen, Amy Cooper. When a Black man in Central Park politely asked her to leash her dog, as required in that area of the park, she called 911 and, faking fear and panic, said that an African American man was threatening her.

Karen episodes blow up on social media. They attract millions of likes, shares, and retweets, and often cross over into the mainstream media. Each Karen is shamed and mocked relentlessly. Her real name is discovered and announced, and she sometimes issues a public apology.

Why are the Karen episodes so fascinating to so many people? How can we understand their psychological power?

Naming a Phenomenon Is Validating and Clarifying
Stories about people who behave in Karen-like ways can be important. They can make an impression. Their power is amplified when they are all gathered together under the umbrella of a unifying name. Now the next person is not just another obnoxious, entitled, potentially dangerous figure. She’s a Karen. A Karen becomes “a thing.” The meme is a way of understanding a broader phenomenon, of recognizing that these are not just isolated, unrelated instances. The label clarifies an important psychological dynamic and makes it recognizable.

Naming can be validating to those who wondered whether their own experiences or impressions were unique or worth taking seriously. That happened, for instance, when terms such as such as “sexism” and #MeToo first gained traction, and it is happening now with the Karen meme.

Calling Out a Karen Wrestles Power from the Perpetrator and Hands It to Her Targets and Their Sympathizers
At least as far back as the days of Emmett Till, white women have had life-threatening power over Black boys and men. When Amy Cooper called the authorities on Christian Cooper (no relation), it was not at all inconceivable that Christian Cooper could have ended up dead. That same weekend, George Floyd did end up dead (though not at the hands of a Karen, but the knee of a police officer).

Christian Cooper had a modern-day tool of resistance — a cellphone. He recorded the incident and it was posted on Twitter. The masses swooped in and the tables were turned. Now it was Amy Cooper, not Christian, who was threatened and shamed. Now it was she who needed to deal with the consequences. That can be enormously satisfying to anyone who has ever been victimized by a Karen or a Ken, and to everyone who is appalled by such blatantly racist acts, even if they do not approve of public shaming or swarming.

The Thrill of Taking Down a Karen Is Shared
When a person is publicly exposed as a Karen (or a Ken), it is not just Karen’s intended victim who has the opportunity to relish the vindication. The sense of outrage at Karen is shared. On social media platforms and beyond, wide swaths of humanity gather to mock and taunt. It is the difference between watching a cult hit in a movie theater with fellow adoring fans (the Karen meme) and viewing it when you are home alone (no Karen meme). The public vilifying may not be commendable, but it is powerful.

The Humor of the Karen Meme Opens a Path to More Serious Matters
Is there a risk that humor trivializes the grave matters at stake? At Forbes, Seth Cohen argued that “meme-like attitudes mask the inherent offensiveness and hurtful attitudes of these individuals’ actions.” He believes that “the offending individuals should be described in the stinging terms that describe what their actions represent — racism, white entitlement, and unchecked privilege.”

Assistant Professor Apryl Williams of the University of Michigan also acknowledges that “the cutesy-ness or the laughability sort of minimizes or masks the fact that these women are essentially engaging in violence.” But, as she told Time magazine, “the humor is a way of dealing with the pain of the violence.”

It has other advantages, too. “For white people,” she noted, “it can help them recognize a pattern of behavior that they don’t want to be a part of, but might be complicit in.” The memes have value for Black people, too, “as a news source, evidence, and an archive of the injustices, the attempts to control bodies and situations.”

It has become a bit of a national cliché that we need to have a conversation about race. What sort of conversation seems less fraught and more likely to occur: the one that starts with, “we need to talk about racism and white entitlement” or the one that begins with laughing at Karen?

The Karen Characters Are Held Accountable
Amy Cooper, the Central Park Karen, did not just get shamed. She also lost her job, and for a while, her dog. She has even been criminally charged with filing a false police report.

Even more significantly, the Karen meme, together with other avenues of awareness and activism, can result in institutionalized social change. In Oregon, for example, people who are victims of racist calls to 911, similar to the one placed by Amy Cooper, can now sue the callers. The Karen meme may seem silly, but it is also powerful.

psychcentral.com/blog/the-psychological-power-of-calling-someone-a-karen/

Iam64 -- "It says far more about people who use it than it does about the people they seek to put down." -- My 'mom' would agree. When I would try to call out her crappy behavior/abuse it would hurt her feelings regardless of what words I used. Because her feelings were hurt by me not liking/trying to stand-up for myself/stop her abuse, she would accuse me of being "just as 'bad' as she is."

The thing is, that dumping abuse on a child is not the same as a victim trying to enlighten their abuser that their behavior is unacceptable.

I didn't know the word Narcissist as a child or teen and if I was growing up today and that word (Karen) was around I would say, "My 'mom' is a total Karen." because that term/her behavior = same. That's why I am for correct/clinical terminology.

hugs help, you can google Karen as a pejorative term, lots of information comes up. It seems primarily aimed at white, middle aged women who have an inflated sense of their own importance. that's whether the "I want to see the manager' referred to up thread comes from.

For what its worth, I find it offensive. It's a lazy way of criticising in a passive aggressive, misogynistic way. It says far more about people who use it than it does about the people they seek to put down.

hugshelp I've looked into it and "Karen" does seem to mean someone prejudice, judgemental and priveledged who thinks they are better than others and deserving of special treatment...

I don't think it is fair to people called Karen either, I know some lovely Karen's

I'm sure it will pass, like these things generally do

hugshelp -- And that's a big issue for Me and my situation. I have diagnosed MHI's. Do those conditions make me an unfit or an abusive parent myself?

My parents and in-laws have one POV on that, which is that I am unfit and that is further evidenced by cutting out/not wanting to be a part of the loving 'families' we walked away from.

This means that when they report Us to CPS and (if a relationship had been established) happily taken us to court because they believe everything about me is 'wrong' and they are right, they don't feel like they are doing anything wrong. I call it harassment.

I always add that where abuse is concerned the rules change. The problem is they are deciding I'm abusive because I'm not doing/or was willing to do things "their way" when raising mine. I have always said, "I'm probably making different mistakes with my children however at least I'm not repeating the mistakes I know my 'parents' made."

As for the Karen thing, it's like this... I said before I didn't coin the term or use it as a label. When people do use it, I know they are describing Narcissistic behavior. I would prefer all Narcissists to be called out for what they are regardless of age/gender/race etc. The last time I checked I don't set the rules of society or the terms society generates.

also do mean mean medical sense not don't mean - sorry tired, and on that note off to bed, nn.

In fact, I'm going to add another caveat, assuming also they are not abusing those children.

HolyHannah - please spell it out for me, and tell me how referring to someone as a 'Karen' is not labelling and refers to their behaviour. I really do want to understand your Pov on that. And what about women who are actually called Karen?

No, you didn't explicitly say that you believe your generation has all the answers. But when you say, 'finally society has woken up' you do not acknowledge that generation upon generation have been thinking that only to realise that there was still more work to be done than they envisaged. And also to realise that some of the changes they made, while fixing one problem, ushered in another.

However, when you say I assume if I live long enough to see grand-children that my children will be telling me all the "new ways" they are raising theirs and I'll do it their way because that's what being a grand-parent is. Supporting AC to raise their children the way they want. I agree entirely with your thinking, with the caveat, assuming those AC are mentally capable (by which I don't mean in the medical sense not some arbitrary judgement by someone who writes them off as being 'not in their right mind') and acting of their own volition.

hugshelp -- "I'm sorry holy Hannah all I see is another post where you are saying your generation has all the answers 'society is waking up' and the way you see fit to deal with it is by using a lazy meme that does exactly what you say you abhor - it labels people." -- No, from my POV it is labeling their BEHAVIOR. I have said repeatedly labeling a person is wrong, labeling their behavior if it is 'bad' is not.

As for me saying 'my generation' "has all the answers"... I must have missed that, however I have said that the younger generations are waking up and making changes. I assume if I live long enough to see grand-children that my children will be telling me all the "new ways" they are raising theirs and I'll do it their way because that's what being a grand-parent is. Supporting AC to raise their children the way they want.

Maybe a 'record of police intervention' ought to be used in some instances or such-like...

That would be far less stigmatising hugshelp and a very good suggestion.

As I said, the last thing we want is for already vulnerable children to have a criminal record damaging their potential future but if someone in the household is in immediate danger, I'm not sure there is an alternative.

Digressing slightly, but isn't it sad that 'having a criminal record' can encompass anything from the transgressions of a struggling child to that of a career burglar or murderer and yet many people will shy away from that person without looking into what it actually means.
Maybe a 'record of police intervention' ought to be used in some instances or such-like...

galaxy I agree with you about children with additional needs. I think there is a lack of help available during the pandemic in particular though so even families who have help in place might not be able to access it.

As I said, the last thing we want is for already vulnerable children to have a criminal record damaging their potential future but if someone in the household is in immediate danger, I'm not sure there is an alternative.

Most children are capable of learning right from wrong and there are ways to not only teach but help understanding (social stories or circle of friends as examples) but families need support, whatever the issue.

When we also know that domestic violence is on the rise, the impact this will have on children is devastating. I've already seen evidence of it at school.

Called the police that should say.
It's very complex and very sad.

I agree with what people have said about the police being the only emergency service to deal with violence, but it still nags at me I suppose, I am thinking of the children I work with (learning disabilitites) and this is no criticism of the police but I am.not sure they would have the skills needed. I have been involved in many violent incidents with children with additional needs, some low level, some not, and I would never have caused the police. But then again I am not a mum on their own experiencing violence.

Clearly a family needing help chewbacca, you are right to be so concerned, I do hope they get that help now.

And your point about calling the police reminds me that some children are much bigger and stronger than their parent while still being quite young.

Exactly the problem hugshelp; one of the boys I referred to as drop kicking his mother, is already significantly taller and heavier than his mother, who is very slightly built. Although bruises are already visible on her, she seems to be embarrassed and ashamed and wouldn't let any one approach her to help, until the most recent incident when their school have stepped in.

Another interesting piece, thanks Star.

An easily missed factor, sibling violence. And with joined families, fostered children, etc etc there's a lot of potential different causes there.

And your point about calling the police reminds me that some children are much bigger and stronger than their parent while still being quite young.

The police are the only reliable 999 service these days. And that's the issue isn't it? CAMHS, social services and every other support network is so underfunded and stretched to the limit that the police are acting as defacto social workers.