Domestic Violence from kids to parents

"Lets keep this thread on topic"

It is on topic apart from the anger over the name Karen. Take Karen out and people are being called out on an inability to take responsibility. Or complaining rather than looking inwards at their own prejudice. Evidence of that exists on this discussion.

The consensus seems to be that abusive children exist. They do and that would be a short discussion.

Here come assertions that abusive children exist from a young age and are domestic abusers from those who wish to perpetuate the idea that abusive people are created in a void.

Talking about where behaviour comes from is not off topic.
It is prejudice to try and drown out opinion on what is known to be fact. ALL behaviour is learnt even if it is learnt that that behaviour is what allows us to cope with our own emotion. Emotion is not learnt, yet needing to be understood and helped by those with responsibility for how others feel.

They're not clear to me either hugshelp which I suppose is one way of disrupting the discussion.

I'd be interested in that too Chewbacca.

Iam64, I too watched the Harold Shipman programme on tv with particular interest as I lived quite close to the area his GP Practice was in and I still have many friends and relatives in that area. I would have liked the programme to have dug a little deeper into his hatred of elderly people, women in particular. I know that he had an unusual relationship with his mother, who died when he was only 17, and I'm sure I remember hearing that he only casually mentioned to a friend that his mother had died the day before. He seemed to have an emotional detachment from relationships with older women and I'd be interested in learning more about that.

rosecaramel it's very difficult to engage with throw-a-way lines. Your points may seem self-explanatory to you but they are certainly not clear to me.

"Actually I need to reword a bit of that. Some violent adults were probably abused children. Others probably witnessed violence. So a woman who has been abused by her husband, and didn't manage to stop it in a timely fashion then goes on to be abused by her ADULT child. I daresay this could happen to fathers too. And there will also be other causal factors."

"If you want to discuss racism rosecarmel please start another thread as this one is about parents being abused by their children."

Clearly .. Oh, nevermind ..

Callistemon

I think of you as Rodney, rosecarmel rather than Karen.

What is a Rodney?

Wheras I've had grey hair since my twenties Callistemon but I'll not get offended either.

Actually I need to reword a bit of that. Some violent adults were probably abused children. Others probably witnessed violence. So a woman who has been abused by her husband, and didn't manage to stop it in a timely fashion then goes on to be abused by her ADULT child. I daresay this could happen to fathers too. And there will also be other causal factors.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Very good points about Harold Shipman Iam. I echo your point that suggesting sometimes a lack of discipline or setting of boundaries causes problems is not remotely the same as suggesting people should hit children.
Many mothers and fathers make mistakes and don't do the optimal job of parenting (whatever that is) but someone who finds it hard to discipline their children effectively is hardly an abuser. Someone who doesn't completely prepare their children in the very best way for a world that is constantly changing is not an abuser. It doesn't mean there are not lessons to be learned but let's not label normal people, who aren't perfect, inappropriately. Let's not lump everyone together in any way that is unhelpful.

I'm not sure what your point is there rosecarmel. I feel it is inappropriate to label others full-stop. Whether that be a silvers or as Karen's. What anyone wants to label themself is their business. However, using the term silver in the name of an organisation that exists to help the elderly is probably not offensive to many. Rather it is used to denote its clientelle in the way it thought best. I'm sorry I can't see where racism is being used in the discussion of the treatment of the elderly but I am happy to hear your point of view on this.

Absolutely nobody should be labelling young children as perpetrators of domestic violence.MrsWarren.
I think there was just a general feel that the thread had turned into a discussion on why people become abusers, that in places were derailing the original purpose of discussing what we can do about the problem. Yes we need to acknowledge that violent adults were probably abused children, but we all know that not all abused children go on to abuse and we need to put responsibility for the violent behaviour of adults in the court of those adults. There is no shame in admitting to anger-management problems etc these days and asking for help.

I don't understand half of what you post rsecarmel, but

I assume that it is called Silverline because it is a helpline specifically for older people and it is assumed that older people may well have silver hair.
Perhaps I should take exception to that label and get offended because I do not have silver hair even though I am ancient.

The answer to your question then is no.

If you want to discuss racism rosecarmel please start another thread as this one is about parents being abused by their children.

Why do you assume 'Silver' only applies to white women?

This is what I typed:

So, an individual considered "Silver" is exempt from being a white, privileged racist due to age?

I'll repeat the question:

So, an individual considered "Silver" is exempt from being a white, privileged racist due to age?

I haven't seen anyone on this thread saying part of the problem is because "boys weren't hit enough as children" ClareAB.

Could you specify exactly where on this thread you saw this? If not may I suggest not making comments that could once again disrupt this thread by making it about children being abused by their parents, when it's supposed to be about parents being abused by their children.

IMO there's a disproportionate number of posts about children being abused by their parents MrsWarren. Also IMO the two boys that Chewbacca referred to at the beginning of this thread are perpetrating domestic violence toward their mother.

That's good to know Iam and interesting that Silver line was inspired by the good work of Child line. I agree Callistemon I hadn't heard of Silver Line until I read Iam's post.

I can't say that anyone considered 'Silver' is exempt from being a white, privileged racist due to age, anymore that you can rosecarmel.

Why do you assume 'Silver' only applies to white women? Women of other skin colour can have 'silver'/grey hair too. Why do you assume that only white people regardless of their age and gender are the only ones capable of being racisist? There's racism from non whites to whites as well as racism from non whites toward other non whites.

Nannan The first time I saw the boys drop kicking their mum to the ground both in and the bus driver tried to help her to her feet but she made it clear that she didn't want any help unfortunately. I know that other young mum's who live nearby have also tried to help but she's not receptive apparently. From what I've been told this week there was another incident within school premises and so now they're involved in trying to help the whole family.

It could even be something wrong with the kids 'wiring' in their brain- or any other medical or physical reason for this behaviour? That they could have help for from dr or a specialist? Maybe their dad left as he couldnt cope with their behaviour- it doesnt necessarily mean they are copying him doing it- whatever reasons they need help clearly and maybe mentioning it to school is the first step.

Those kids are already violent though arent they Bibbity? And im afraid i couldnt have witnessed this behaviour 3 times Chewbacca without interfering in some way- by telling those boys to stop it at once- and/or at least reporting it to someone- you may well be helping them- sounds like they need it- and you would certainly be helping the mother- otherwise where will it end? Also if the boys are aggressive in playground it needs nipping in the bud before they get any older and really hurt someone much more.Can you mention it head of school?And tell them what youve witnessed of their behaviour of their mum?then let the school take it from there.

So, an individual considered "Silver" is exempt from being a white, privileged racist due to age?

And it's A-OK to be "Silver" but not "Karen"-

Sorry, should have said here's a link to the organisation mentioned by Iam64

www.thesilverline.org.uk/what-we-do

I don't think this is advertised enough; everyone knows about Childline but perhaps the word should be spread about Silverline.

Chewbacca

^Perhaps we need an Elderly Help Line.^

That's an excellent idea hugshelp. I'm sure that there are many elderly and vulnerable people who are being abused, they just don't get heard. Again this week, an elderly man who suffered with dementia, was treated dreadfully in hospital; it's not uncommon. I feel that elder abuse is somehow swept under the carpet as being "less important". An obvious example of that is right here - on this thread. It's title is quite clear and unambiguous Dometic Violence from kids to parents, and yet it quickly got shouted down and minimised by those who don't want it to be discussed. Abuse of the elderly is every bit as important and valid as any other and needs to be discussed.

The only problem I have with this thread is the labelling of young, minor children as perpetrators of domestic violence.

I am really struggling to see how you’ve come to the conclusion that people don’t want elder abuse to be discussed or are somehow minimising it.

Have you worked out the proportion of "people on this thread believe that the answer is that thee boy weren't hit enough as children" , ClaireB?

I may have missed some posts but my impression is that no one is supporting hitting children. The OP refers to the setting of boundaries. That's an entirely different thing than physically (or emotionally) abusing children. Children need boundaries that are age appropriate, and warmly, lovingly maintained. That never includes physical or emotional abuse because of course, that would damage children and ruin the relationship between parent and child.

I find it disturbing how many people on this thread believe that the answer is that these boys weren't hit enough as children. In many cases the opposite is true. Why is it labelled domestic violence if a kid hits his mother, and discipline if the mother hits the boy? In my eyes BOTH are abusive.
This double standard has been shown over and over again to cause damage to children and the relationship between parent and child. The science is there...

There is an Elderly Help Line, known as The Silver Line. It is the only free, 24 hour confidential information. The website says it provides information, friendship and advice to older people, open 24 hours, every day of the year. I may be wrong but I think it was inspired by the good work done by Childline

There is also an Age UK helpline

I watched the documentary on Dr Harold Shipman recently. The journalist who researched and filmed said on several occasions that one of the main reasons Dr S was able to murder over 230 people was because they were 'elderly' .

None of the people he murdered was seriously ill, most of them were fit, active people with good family and friends actively involved in their lives. They were also predominantly female. It's reassuring that PM's, the signature on death certificates, the involvement of the Coroners Office is now much more careful regulated and scrutinised.

Chewbacca at 11.59 today is right to point out how quickly this thread clearly titled Domestic Violence from kid to parents and concerns minimised by those who didn't want abuse toward parents discussed.

Great to see its back on track.

sorry that was meant to be somehow not someone