Domestic Violence from kids to parents

The help line wasn't my idea chewbacca I was agreeing with Sparkling who suggested it up thread but I think it is a great idea (just don't want to claim undue credit).

Yes I agree, the thread was supposed to be about elderly abuse and yet someone, yet again, it turns into a thread about bad parents. Of course there are parents who do badly, and whose children are damaged as a result, I was one of those children, but there are other important related issues that it is hard to platform.

As you say smiles there are people who are upset because they don't feel they are being heard, yet maybe we all need to try to hear the viewpoints of others a little more, and see that there are other problems within family dynamics aside from our own.

Great post @ 10.45 hugshelp.

Yes, why is that Chewbacca (rhetorical question BTW).

Why is it OK to talk about for example the abuse that's experienced in childhood in the main perpetrated by parents, but 'not' OK to talk about parents who are being abused by their children?

Seeing a discussion on such an important issue shouted down and minimised, especially by those who complain that this happens with other discussions, is rather disturbing.

Perhaps we need an Elderly Help Line.

That's an excellent idea hugshelp. I'm sure that there are many elderly and vulnerable people who are being abused, they just don't get heard. Again this week, an elderly man who suffered with dementia, was treated dreadfully in hospital; it's not uncommon. I feel that elder abuse is somehow swept under the carpet as being "less important". An obvious example of that is right here - on this thread. It's title is quite clear and unambiguous Dometic Violence from kids to parents, and yet it quickly got shouted down and minimised by those who don't want it to be discussed. Abuse of the elderly is every bit as important and valid as any other and needs to be discussed.

Oh and thanks FannyCornforth - sorry, you defined Karen exactly as it is used, a sexist and ageist insult.

I'm not sure I understand your post about lifting all women up rosecarmel.
I didn't convey my post about how women are treated in the press clearly enough. When the press choose to write about rape or murder it tends to be about certain salacious cases where they regularly focus on what the woman wore or how she might like to go out for a drink or whatever as though something the woman does contributes to her being raped or killed. Sometimes we see a case where a man has been raped by a woman or has been falsely accused.

The general picture that emerges, by the way it is reported, is a distortion of the truth. I'm not saying every case should be in the press. But how about, when they post one of these things they add in a few statistical facts. Like the fact that 2 women a week are killed by men every week in the UK. Like the fact that although men are raped or falsely accused of rape by some women, a man is more likely to be raped by another man than attacked or falsely accused by a women. I'm simply acting that the truth is represented rather than distorted.

Please tell me what you mean about women who are dead weight and unaccountable because I'm just not understanding.

I'm sorry holy Hannah all I see is another post where you are saying your generation has all the answers 'society is waking up' and the way you see fit to deal with it is by using a lazy meme that does exactly what you say you abhor - it labels people. Don't you want to escape the kind of behaviour you say you are against?

It is very true sparkling that two people from the same family often see their upbringing differently. I have seen this. I think the elderly help line is a very good idea. The abuse of the elderly in general is a topic that is seldom aired. I think we are often seen as an irrelevance in our society once past a certain age.

And good to hear that news Chewbacca

That is good news Chewbacca fingers crossed that this poor mother and her boys get the help they need.

An Elderly Abuse line is an excellent idea Sparkling. You can have two children in a family, both treated the same, who perceive their upbringing in entirely different ways, it somehow justifies everything that is wrong in their lives, someone to blame. Exactly, this does happen and can make it difficult for a parent for example who is being abused by their AC to reach out if they believe they and the way their child was raised will be blamed.

hugshelp was correct, HolyHannah, 'Karen' is a 'lazy way of putting people down'.
It's an internet meme.
It's a sexist and ageist insult.
It means an outspoken middle aged woman.
It's similar to the use of 'chav' twenty years ago.
See also the 'can I speak to the manager' haircut, and 'okay boomer'.

Sparkling -- "Please tell me who on earth is Karen? Why is the name used so scathingly. Just a girls name. What has this Karen done?"

Reply from hugshelp -- "It's a lazy way of putting other people down."

Not from my my POV. Society is waking up to (I have run out of words to describe the behavior I am talking about so I am down to a##hole) and the words all mean the same thing.

All those terms are directly or indirectly pointing in the same direction. Every time anyone tries to put a term/word/meaning towards those that exhibit 'that behavior' are told over and over again that labeling is "wrong" and all those "mean words" are 'wrong'.

So I am always for progress because I am learning on the fly like every other parent and today the term is, "Karen".

Thank you Hugshelp. I guess Karen was a sister, parent or carer who poster thought cruel, so all Karen's are labelled the same. Is that not strange lumping a whole group of people with that same name as having the same characteristics?
The abuse of older people is very real, we have seen on television how a few people were abused in care homes, their family had to place secret cameras to film the abuse.. I bet at home no one had a clue that a member of their family was capable of such cruelty. You don't have to have been a cruel parent to have a bully as a child. All acts of cruelty is wrong the subject needs airing., In opening up about it as with other taboos, the victim might not feel that in some way they deserve it or caused it to happen. Their is no excuse treating anyone in that way the bullies need exposing. You can have two children in a family, both treated the same, who perceive their upbringing in entirely different ways, it somehow justifies whatever is wrong in their lives, someone to blame. It would be so nice in more normal times, that elderly got together with each other, they might open up more. My late Mil, every second Tuesday, had a mini bus collect her and take her to a Centre with other local elderly, they had tea and cakes and a couple of hours chat, she loved it, she also, right until the end of her life, had a hairdresser come in weekly to do her hair, she became a friend. Generally, most of us do the best we can at the time for our children, although I know how awful life is for some, thank goodness there is Child Line now, but I know that doesn't help every child. Perhaps we need an Elderly Help Line.

So, lift all women up, flaws and all?

No-

Look where that got men-

And why on earth would rape be "newsworthy"? #MeToo provided a safe space for women all around the world to come forward and "say so"- And that made the news- But to broadcast each individual rape fit to print and be made to feel even more naked for entertainment?

No-

It's impossible to lift women up that refuse to hold themselves accountable- They're dead weight- No, glued in place- No, welded- At least if that's how they grew you could pull them up by the roots- But once welded in privilege? Good luck!

oodles and hugs help, thanks for helping get this thread back on track. You're right to stress the role of fathers in bringing up children. On so many estrangement threads, its mothers who seem to be attributed greater responsibility for abuse in families. Yes, women can be abusive but as hugshelp says, its usually women who are beaten and murdered by their male partners.

Chewbacca thanks for the update its good to see the school being proactive.

I'm pleased to hear that, Chewbacca

Excellent post Oodles; the father figure has a huge influence on a child's behaviour and development, whether they're present or absent in the child's life. At the beginning of This thread, before it went drastically off topic, I mentioned a family close to where I live, where the 2 young boys behave in a quite violent way towards their mother. I have no idea if this is because they've witnessed their father behaving that way and so are replicating it, or if their aggression is a symptom of the situation at home. Someone upthread mentioned that the school could involve child psychologists to help and I've heard, just this week, that this has now been discussed (didn't mention this before due to the derailment of the discussion). I just hope that the boys can be helped before the behaviour pattern become entrenched.

An awful lot of good points there oodles.

Of course in male dominated societies, ie pretty much all of them, mother-blame is far more prevalent than father-blame, and serious abuse of women by men a huge issue. And yes I know not all men are like that and women are abusers of men too, but the fact remains that women are statistically much more likely to die at the hands of men than vice versa.

What shocks me is how rarely the murders and rapes of women by men are even considered newsworthy. How women are fair game to have their looks shredded in the press, the way they parent, etc etc. And how this mindset reflects society all too well. And yes, it's often women shredding each other.

And yes, I think the factors that affect how someone turns out are extremely complicated and simplifying them so they can all be blamed on the mother is a disservice to us all.

indeed Smileless, sadly we do read of babies being battered by the father as they won't stop crying. Babies only cry because there is a reason. Although you can't spoil a baby because you see to their needs, however unreasonable they may seem at the time. I did learn early on that there was always a reason for crying even though it didn't seem obvious at the time. A father who doesn't tolerate normal baby behaviour will not suddenly start tolerating toddler behaviour or preschool behaviour. If a mother is forced to ignore the needs of her baby or small child, yes eventually they will stop crying but they still have the unfulfilled needs and emotions, and if they grow up feeling that what they need doesn't matter, then maybe it's not surprising that they treat others the same way

Does the mother have to pacify the noisy but normal children anyway possible to avoid further abuse from the father a good point oodles and not just to protect herself from abuse but perhaps to prevent the children being abused too.

Abuse of older women by their adult sons is what the OP started the discussion with, and basically the man blames the mothers for this. Last time I counted people also have a male parent, and yes, some will be dead, some might be away in the army, but most will not be. So why does the woman get the blame, where is the good supportive male parent in all this, is he abusing the mother, does he leave parenting to the mother, to fit in alongside work and running the household while he only lifts a finger to hit mother or son. Does the mother have to pacify the noisy but normal children any way possible to avoid further abuse from the father, has she been abandoned by him and he provides no support either financial or emotional. I struggle to see where the discussion went off the rails.
I think it it is a false premise that failure to set boundaries is the primary reason for abuse, if it was there would be as much abuse from daughters as from sons. Has anyone seen statistics on how common abuse is towards mothers compared to wives or girlfriends? And at different times of life there may be different types of abuse. A woman whose son is born when she is 20 will only be 40 when that son is an adult, it will be a very different dynamic to when she is 70 or 80.
In my experience abusers have received more abuse during their childhood and adolescence [although I know not every abuser has had physical violence, some just don't feel loved] You only have to look at the background of some murderers to see that so many of them have had very troubled family backgrounds and upbringings, but not every child in the family goes on to murder people, some do their damnedest to make sure that they get away from it and bring up their own family differently.
Babies are not born as blank slates, stressful or anxious times during pregnancy have an effect on the baby's developing brain, this disadvantage can be mostly overcome by kind and responsive mothering, and parenting, but it's all lot more complex than some seem to think it is.

Good posts Smileless & Hugshelp. Simple observations with no condemnation about anyone who does things differently.

We had the same problem with our DS hugshelp he wanted to sleep on his front but because of the research that had been done into cot deaths, we were told it was too risky.

We used the same technique, not one that was suggested to us by the midwife so that he would sleep. The midwife seemed to be of the opinion that he'd happily sleep on his back eventually.

My mum and I disagreed with how we potty trained our boys and at what age we begun. I didn't castigate her for what she'd done or try to make her feel that she was a 'bad' parent because when we were babies and toddlers, things were done differently.

My gran was horrified at how young they were when we first introduced solids; again it was a different time.

I agree that there's little wrong with the present generation are saying about child rearing practices and that applies to previous generations, and as is said so often on the estrangement threads, it's the way that it's said.

The vast majority of parents I'm sure do their best to teach wisdom and knowledge to their children, hoping that in the fullness of time they will be making their own decisions and choices.

How devastating it must be for some parents when the decisions and choices their AC make are to abuse their own parents.

Those abusive AC can only hope that their own children don't make the decisions and choices they've made, and end up being abused by their children, just as they abused their parents.

yes HolyHannah it is wrong for grandparents to try and impose outdated practices and mores on their AC. It is the parents job to navigate the terribly difficult job of parenting the best they can.

But, can you not see, that when you give us a list of how things are done now as though current standards are THE way of doing things you're not far from falling into the same trap? I don't mean this as a criticism of your practices in any way, but rather the way you deliver them sounds as though you're saying, 'ahhah we have got it right at last'. I genuinely can see a lot of places where progress in current thinking seems positive. But, at the same time I can remember seeing things the experts were telling me when my children were small, that seemed so sensible, and turned out to be wrong.
Both in terms of the effect things would have psychologically on the next generation and in practical matters.

I had to disagree with my midwife who insisted I put my son to sleep on his front. I could see he wasn't happy. Back was forbidden, so we compromised on side with a towel behind him so he couldn't roll on is back. I had a healthy thriving daughter who my health visitor insisted was underweight. I was eventually pressured into feeding her more often. She ended up overweight and still finds keeping a healthy weight difficult. And the reason was because they were using charts based on bottle-fed babies while the weight-gain pattern was different for breast-fed babies. We were told you can't give your kids too much praise, but nobody explained that they have to feel they have earned that praise and the wrong kind of praise can actually damage their confidence. Or that when you try to do all the right things but have unresolved issues yourself, your children can sense there is something not right and it undermines the good things you say and do.

Every generation learns something new. And some of it is wrong. Some of what your generation is doing, with the very best of intentions, will turn out to have downsides that nobody envisaged. No matter how you try' you wont do it perfectly. And I'm not saying this to put you down in any way, but to prepare you for the day when you, your children, or society says that some of the things you did were actually not great.

Parenting is the hardest job in the world, and almost everyone does the best they can with the tools they have. But people who were parented badly have to work hard to find tools and the wheel goes on being reinvented.

There's actually little wrong with most of what people on both sides of the divide are saying, but the way it is being said is often causing hurt to those who are reading it.

It's a lazy way of putting other people down sparkling - yet another way of pigeon-holing someone into a box and saying you are 'that kind of person' - divisive and unhelpful in my opinion. Also a way of insulting someone who doesn't speak your lingo in a way that they won't understand, because they are not in the cool gang.

Please tell me who on earth is Karen? Why is the name used so scathingly. Just a girls name. What has this Karen done?

To add to my previous comment -- In other words... If it was okay/common practice/accepted 'normal behavior' "back in the day" to drive to the store with a child in your lap... Does that mean that today's law enforcement should just say, "Oh well... Because that was how you 'did things' then? Oh! My 'bad'... You get a pass because..."

And there's no because BECAUSE laws/rules change and it is up to those NOT learning/obeying the current laws/rules/standards to upgrade to current standards OR face penalties. If you feel it is your 'right' to not wear a seatbelt? I say, "Then don't but when you get cited by the police for not wearing your legally mandated seatbelt? Don't play victim to Me when You get ticketed."

Part of my Jedi faith is the concept that children are Padawan learners... We try to give wisdom and knowledge and let Our "learners" make their own choices/decisions...

hugshelp -- Is anyone not aware that every generation produces a whole load of new research, science, and experts that often largely contradict what went before or at least modify it?" -- Exactly.

Leaving children to "cry 'it' out" in bed is no longer good practice. Infants should sleep on their backs. Child safety seats are mandatory etc. And yet when adult children don't do things the way the GP thinks they should be done and says, "If you won't do things 'our way' you won't be allowed around my children..." the AC becomes the bad guy.

For husband and I, even if we did something totally 'new' that our parent's did/did not do and we said, "This is the way we do things with our kids..." you can bet they'd do the opposite. Not because they know the opposite is 'better' but because if We say 'it', IT must be "wrong"/they must resist anything that we request.

Again, this is why I would never let them around my children. I know how they think/will behave because nothing has changed in 40+ years.

I do think that a Karen would take advantage of their frail, elderly parent because Ive witnessed the exchange- It began with the giving of a biscuit followed by paper cuts, then another biscuit- The cutting Karen one in the same as the Karen that complained to the head of the facility about their staff-