Never dreamt this could happen

Smileless: Interesting that you turned what I said into the point that YOU do not allow your experience to color your view of DIL's in general. My post was that I do not believe that DIL's deserve all the blame they get. I even stated that I realize that this does happen in some cases. But I do not for a minute believe it happens as often as I see it being reported.

If you allowed that to make you feel invalidated, that is something that you will need to deal with. I am not responsible for your feelings.

There are multiple DIL's on this thread alone who have reported exactly what I am talking about, being blamed for something that they did not do. So it does happen. You stating to both Cafe and me that our viewpoint is not helpful invalidates our experience. Our viewpoint is very relevant to this discussion, we are pointing out that we (representative as the evil DIL in this story) are being blamed for something we did not do. And yes, even EP's need to hear this, no matter how painful it is. Because maybe it would help them see things differently.

No one can go to an open discussion forum and not expect to have a discussion. I respectfully stay away from the SUPPORT thread because I know that a discussion like this in not appropriate there. In the mean time, I will continue to give my viewpoint where I feel necessary and will not worry about what happens if I invalidate you if you chose to take my discussion about a large topic as a personal attack.

I think it depends on what has actually happened.

Blaming it all on your DIL won't do you any favours with your son or with seeing your grandchildren.

Look at what's caused it, is it mismatched expectations? What's been said? We're there any arguments? Misunderstandings?

We were estranged from my inlaws for a number of years. A huge heart to heart years ago helped and we are better than we have ever been. So it can get better.

Seeing the influence that an EAC's partner has had, and how that has eventually resulted in estrangement, does not negate the EAC from any or all responsibility.

For us, despite the controlling and manipulative behaviour of our ES's wife, it is him and him alone that we hold responsible for what has happened.

Your friends' experience is shared by many EP's Shropshirelass and your post Sarnia shines a light on the myth that it's the d.i.l. EP's 'blame'.

Of course unreasonable parents in law can put an enormous strain on a relationship, my m.i.l. is a prime example of one and when it got too much for us, I withdrew for some time but at no time insisted or expected my husband and our children to do the same.

We did have a 'normal family life'. It was our ES's wife's family life that wasn't, and this was recognised by her and our son.

On a forum such as this one, where posters talk about their personal experiences of estrangement, where some of us have seen the damage that our son's wife's have inflicted on our families, it's not helpful IMO to post about the DIL blame game getting old CafeAuLait.

I found your post @ 00.43 quite upsetting freedomfromthepast and invalidating the experiences of some of us who post here. Despite my experience of our ES's wife, I do not allow it to colour my view of d's.i.l. in general.

Madgran77

*It's easier to blame someone from 'outside' rather than think of one's own child's role*

It is! But it is not a given that that is tge problem in every case, its just one if a range of possibilities! .

Yes, each situation is unique.

Shropshirelass

This happened to some friends of mine. Their son was lovely but his wife slowly controlled him to the point that my friends didn’t see or hear from him. My friends are lovely welcoming people and there was no reason for this. Yes, he had a family and a life but the exclusion was total and so wrong. I can’t give you any advice but it might help you to know you are not alone in this type of behaviour.

I think you're talking about DIL me. Oh no wait - my husband just stinks at keeping in touch with people and doesn't make the effort. Still my fault though.

Seems from reading this it is either the DIL or MIL who gets the flack.
I am trying to support my son through his estrangement, in which he has repeatedly fled a person who only wants to fight.
How would I feel if it was my daughter, who is married to a man who only seems to want to fight too but deals with it through fleeing to her work?
I have 'fled' my relationship with DIL and grandchild too, because I could no longer 'fight' her.
At least it gives me a different perspective to work on through all this crazy stuff.

This happened to some friends of mine. Their son was lovely but his wife slowly controlled him to the point that my friends didn’t see or hear from him. My friends are lovely welcoming people and there was no reason for this. Yes, he had a family and a life but the exclusion was total and so wrong. I can’t give you any advice but it might help you to know you are not alone in this type of behaviour.

It's easier to blame someone from 'outside' rather than think of one's own child's role

It is! But it is not a given that that is tge problem in every case, its just one if a range of possibilities! .

My eldest daughter's husband is the control freak in their marriage. His first remark to me was that 'He doesn't do family'. Suffice to say nobody in my family has a relationship with her and her children as it does not suit him. Very sad state of affairs but one you cannot change by yourself.

“Are there mismatched expectations driving conflict? And at what point should we expect men to be the ones who manage and be responsible for the relationships they are in (on both sides?).

That is the cause of many breakdowns. Men changing from single life, to committing to married life with one woman, as well as the demands of work. Women balancing work with children and a man who needs to work full time to maintain his career path. There are of course some women who are the primary earner, which is OK as long as the man is happy to be family organizer. In most cases the man earns the most and needs to concentrate on his career path, which may mean long hours or time away from home, which adds to tension.

For my own relationship, I did not want my husband to micro manage the family, I wanted him to “provide” and I would organized the house, family and inevitably relationship. Isn’t that the way most of us like it to be

Unreasonable in-laws makes relationships more difficult, putting pressure on the couple instead of helping them, if only in-laws would just help when asked, otherwise leave them alone but thats far too easy.

Freedom

You nailed that analyst to the T

Cafe: my own MIL was an interesting specimen in this. Before she even met me, she didn't like me because I was "taking her son away". We lived near her for 2 1/2 years and I did everything I could to try to develop a relationship with her, to no avail. For years after we moved away (5 states in 8 years), we tried to keep a relationship. She did the bare minimum. In fact has only met our youngest twice in 14 years. Our choice was to pack up 2 small children in our car and drive to see her over 1,000 miles to see her, despite the fact that we had a child who screamed the entire time in the car, OR figure out how "all 16" of HER family could come and visit us. Long story but she has 6 kids total and refused to leave her second set of 3, then adults with kids, alone.

The 2 times she did visit, we paid for her airfare and she stayed with us. We were very reasonable in the fact that she was making a sacrifice to visit and did what we could to help. Even though she had plenty of money, we never ASSume.

Now, 20 years into our marriage, she tells my husband that she doesn't understand why her and I don't have a relationship. I gave up years ago, but only after seeing how much pain she caused HIM.

As the DIL, I tried. Didn't work. I do not make him choose not to have a relationship with his mother. He has limited contact but that is HIS choice. Because he is a grown man, not a child who can be controlled and manipulated.

She still to this day tells her adoring admirers that her evil DIL is the cause of our "estrangement".

Funny story, the only DIL she did like was the one who ended up getting arrested for breaking into her sons house and stealing the fridge. She was arrested rolling a dang fridge down the road. Which is a feat because she is a fairly petite woman. Meth can make you do amazing things. She is also a heavy drug user and now, 6 years after the divorce, still stalks my BIL.

I do not live under the assumption that because I married into someone's family I have to become family. I would love it if I had, but that was not the case. But we have something in common that we love. I always wonder, are both sides making the effort to find common ground? Are there mismatched expectations driving conflict? And at what point should we expect men to be the ones who manage and be responsible for the relationships they are in (on both sides?)

That makes a lot of sense freedom. My husband definitely does the flight thing. It's quite destructive to relationships really. He is responsible for choosing to take the road that is easiest for him though.

Maybe part of it is that we still make women responsible for family management, on the whole? My husband had a strong model of a mother who organised everything, so maybe that influences how much effort he is willing to put in himself?

I have seen that my own DD's views and approaches have changed a bit since she married, clearly influenced by the person she is married too. Not saying that as a criticism at all, it makes sense. She now has to fit another person into her life who has his own approaches and ways of doing things. Somewhere in there they need to reach a way of being and approaching things together. They are living the lifestyle that suits them and their own life structure. That is different from my own. I think it would be more unusual if there weren't adjustments made along the way. Maybe part of how the relationship goes depends on how we respond to those changes?

Estrangement is very complex and but the DIL blame does get old. Making the DIL the scapegoat is only likely to push her away. This helps no-one's case if the DIL is also the social organiser.

I too have a problem with so many stories whose cause is the controlling DIL. I also find it very interesting that it seems to be the DIL (and not SIL) so often when I read stories.

Those the article on verywellfamily.com may explain this phenomenon:

"In a conflict, males tend to employ a "fight or flight" strategy, and family conflict often results in the "flight" option, meaning that males often withdraw from the conflict. Because the male refuses to engage, the estrangement tends to be long-lasting and intractable."

www.verywellfamily.com/breakdown-of-family-estrangement-1695444#statistics

The stats I have seen often, though I don't have a study available, tends to skew towards parents not seeing a problem before estranging vs, EAC reporting there was, and they brought it up only to not be listened to.

I can offer perspective from the EAC point of view. Of course each case was different, but hearing from EAC provides a different perspective, all of which make sense and does not = controlling DIL/SIL.

The most often reported reason I see from EAC is that once they are adults and on their own, they meet someone and learn and see that what they believed was a normal family life was anything but. Or they decide that the life they grew up with doesn't suit them now. Recent example: politics.

Of course we also need to bring up the fact that are 2 entire generations of people worldwide who are pointing fingers at each other and calling the other narcissists. And both generations believe they are correct in their assessment.

It is easy to blame the outside person on estrangement. But the question I usually ask myself is this (especially for parents of sons), how is it that so many of us raised men who are so easily brainwashed? I know that sounds harsh, and I don't mean it that way, but it is a valid point. Why are so many SONS being led away from parents? Are we raising ours sons to not stand up for themselves and make decisions on their own? That just seems so strange to me. And if this such a common problem, why aren't we putting these women in charge of running the world? Because apparently they have some type of superpower.

Or maybe it is the fact that the son made this choice on his own and it is easier to blame the DIL? It is a totally human thing to do to protect our brains from hurt.

I also want to address the point of seeing SO MANY people say "I know these people and I couldn't never imagine what they did to be estranged. They are loving caring people who would never do anything wrong"

Says every person who sees someone they know be arrested for domestic abuse, or sexual assaults'. Or hears about affairs, or theft. My point being that we do not know what happens behind closed doors. Every day what we consider normal, caring, loving people do things they shouldn't. So why are we judging people by appearance? They "LOOK" like such normal, loving, caring people is like judging a book contents by its cover.

People think my own abusive mother is an amazing, loving caring person. Except they have no ideas what happens behind closed doors. And abuse is not only physical. Some EAC who were emotionally abused wished it WAS physical because then people would see the truth about these "loving caring" parents.

Again, neither here nor there, just a discussion as I like to have. Each estrangement story is unique. But I do hope that this brainwashed child thought process starts to subside. It is either not as big an issue as we want to believe OR we need to start raising our children differently because it is something we must be doing to result in so many people who are capable of brainwashing another or being brainwashed.

I want to say I am not saying all parents are abusive nor am I saying all children ARENT abusive. But hearing various thought processes is what brings about change in certain situations. If neither the EP nor the EAC look inward and insist they are blameless, there will be no forward movement.

GG65

Madgran77

When we don’t allow our children the space to transition into the new chapters of their lives, problems arise.

Very true although we don't know that is the problem in this particular case

I agree gradual withdrawal as part of growing up is normal. But not no contact atall ...yes normal in estrangement but not normal in normal processes like growing up and gradual withdrawal. To me these are two separate processes caused by different things, one "normal" and one not

No, we don’t.

But I’ll be honest. I have a real problem with the controlling DIL narrative. I really do.

It's easier to blame someone from 'outside' rather than think of one's own child's role.

Is it possible your daughter in law is a snob who wants only to socialise with those who are richer/better educated/ whiter/ more self confident/ bigger house/posher relations/ etc. ?

It is an unfortunate fact that a woman who habitually shares a pillow with a man does influence his ideas; that is why it is called 'pillow talk'. See Samson and Delilah.

Great posts Madgran.

Sorry I didn't get it before as I haven't been in that situation. My mum she always said it and she was rude and conrolling and always telling me what I should think and how I should feel and what I should like and obviously I didnt fight her on that till now. I have never had to walk on eggshells around anyone but maybe that is because I've never stood up for myself till now.
I think some peopls know how my mum was abusive and know how to push me like she did and I need to stay quiet but not let it bother me. Then I will be better and stronger than them and they can waste their time as mum does now I have her blocked every way and I have moved ha ha

I’m sorry Velaine, you say you were not 100% happy and could see it happening, honestly the best thing you can do is leave newly weds alone and let them do things their way.

You probably said something inadvertently or gave the wrong impression, it could literally been anything, all you can do now is let them get along with their own lives. Make contact at Christmas, birthdays, etc, it’s not what you wanted, it’s not what I wanted but that’s the way it is. Until of course they want something.

GG65 But I’ll be honest. I have a real problem with the controlling DIL narrative. I really do

It happens in some relationships that one partner is controlling. It doesn't in others. It is a cause of estrangement in some families, in others the causes are different.

I think it is good to help posters to consider all aspects and possibilities for why they are in the position that they are, including where they might have caused problems. But it has to start from their perspective of the problems. And no assumption that they did cause the problems, maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

Your original questions to the OP were pertinent. It is up to her whether she wishes to reply or not.

Armadillo
Trust me, eggshell walking is the alternative to upsets, accusations, and rows.
All our family are like this with one member of our family. We all love her, she’s a good, lovely funny person, but she’s riddled with insecurities, suspects us of ganging up on her, misreads a lot of what we say, and has a distorted view of the past.
We do not want her to be unhappy, so we constantly walk on eggshells, sometimes it’s the only way.

Madgran77

*When we don’t allow our children the space to transition into the new chapters of their lives, problems arise.*

Very true although we don't know that is the problem in this particular case

I agree gradual withdrawal as part of growing up is normal. But not no contact atall ...yes normal in estrangement but not normal in normal processes like growing up and gradual withdrawal. To me these are two separate processes caused by different things, one "normal" and one not

No, we don’t.

But I’ll be honest. I have a real problem with the controlling DIL narrative. I really do.

Did you discuss the fact that you weren't happy with your son? If so, he may have talked about it with his wife. Can't imagine it would have made either of them happy to know you disapproved

True. Pity they didn't all get it out in the open, if that was the case. But then eggshell walking makes that hard.

we went along with it all but wasnt 100% happy as there seemed to be a lot of lying by her and also controlling behaviour.

What lying and controlling behaviour was there??

Did you discuss the fact that you weren't happy with your son? If so, he may have talked about it with his wife. Can't imagine it would have made either of them happy to know you disapproved.

Obviously some in laws are a pain, but I don’t for a moment think that there has invariably been some cause for the estrangement.

Exactly. Every case is different and no assumptions can be made about cause