SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

That's great DerbyshireLass, congratulations on your first sale since re launch.

I think I'd do the same Elless but keeping everything crossed that your op goes ahead on the 27th. The stress of waiting for an op is almost as bad as having it go ahead isn't it.

"Warrior Queens" we certainly are Whiff. OK when we have a wobble our crowns wobble a little bit too, but even if they fall off, all we need to do is pick them up and put them back on again.

Thank you Granniesunite for your lovely contributions. As I said when I started this thread, it's for the friends we've made and those we've yet to make.

DerbyshireLass your husband would be very proud of you as I know my husband would be proud of me. I also know my son would never have done what he has if his dad was still alive.

We brought both the children up the same and I have treated their others halves equally. My son was so caring and loving I didn't see what happened coming. It shocked me to the core. But Smiles wonderful wisdom and caring made it possible for me to post opening. Took me a lot longer to open up openly than it has you.

You have come so far in such a short time. You should very proud of yourself. Like Smiles I am proud of you.

It's a sad fact estrangement happens a lot in families but we are the lucky ones we have a safe place to come and get help and support . We found eachother and that makes us stronger than we ever thought we could be. We are all warrior Queens . Ok we have wobbles but we dust our self's off ready to face the next thing in our lives.

?

Love it Derbyshirelass just love it.

Another here who has been supported very much reading this thread.smileless thank you...
I take heart from the courage and kindness shown here by so many of you.

Nanalouise hope you've got some military fatigues - it gets a bit like Dads Army on here . Well done DerbyshireLass I admire you.
Whiff op is supposed to be 27th, if it gets cancelled this time I'm going to put it off until the new year, I'm fed up of thinking about it.

Thats amazing Derbyshire Lass, well done you.?

Posts crossed. Thanks Smiles. That's lovely. I really appreciate that.

Thought I'd share this with you to show just how far I've come in the last few weeks.

As you know my way of coping has been to thrown myself into revamping my house and garden. Outside painting, planting trees and shrubs and then inside I have been decluttering and deep cleaning. It's looking fab even if I do say so myself.

Now that I'm a bit more on top of things I have also relaunched my business

In the spring of this year I started a little sideline business buying and selling vintage clothing. It was never meant to be more than a hobby business, just doing something I enjoy and earning a bit of money.

I loved it but I made the stupid mistake of telling DIL. She laughed at me, scoffed at my efforts, patronised me and tried to make me look foolish in front of my sons. I got disheartened as a result and wound it down.

Well, as a result of regaining some of my confidence I decided it was time to try again so this week I went for relaunch. It's started off very well. I launched yesterday and made my first sale today. Wahoo. Not only that but thanks to DILs sneering comments I have changed tactics, gone for more high end goods and upped my prices...........so making more profit.

She will be furious when she finds out. ??. Although it won't come from me.......I won't say a word.

Wow DerbyshireLass that brought tears to my eyes, it really did.

Is it really just 10 weeks, gosh you've changed so much and I hope it's OK for me to say I'm really proud of you, because I am.

Your husband would have understood. He wouldn't have been disgusted with you, his disgust would have been for your son and d.i.l. and rightly so.

He'd be saying to you now well done, I knew you had it in you and I'm so proud of how far you've come and how far I know you can go.

What you needed was for someone to believe in you; we did and we do. Your strength was there all along, we just helped you to tune into it.

I shall be eternally grateful to you Smiles for starting this thread. It's been a lifesaver for me,

When I discovered you (is it really only ten weeks ago) I was in turmoil. The bottom had fallen out of my world. For the first week I was in such a state of shock I couldn't eat or sleep, I had panic attacks and I honestly was terrified I was going to have a stroke or a heart attack.

It was this thread which put me on the road to recovery and I will never forget that. So.....from the bottom of heart I thank you.

Just ten short weeks. I can't believe how much I've changed.

Goodbye to the wimp who tiptoed round DIL and gave into her insane demands purely to just try and keep the peace. Looking back I am disgusted with myself that I allowed myself to become such a doormat. What would my husband say.

But.....I won't torture myself. That was then and this now. Now I am a Warrior Queen and woe betide her if (make that when) she starts her next round of nonsense.

I wont be the timid compliant little mouse ever again and it's all thanks to this thread for giving me the strength to stand up for myself,

I've been thinking about how far the subject of estrangement has come. Nine years ago those few of us who were sharing and trying to care for and support one another were very much in the dark.

Although it's always upsetting to see a new poster going through this traumatic experience, it's also good that more and more are opening up.

Psychological and philosophical terminology can be over used and at times inappropriately, but when it is appropriate it can validate our feelings and experiences as well as giving much needed help and coping mechanisms to others.

There have been many times when I'd wished I'd known then what I know now. If there had been just one EP who'd got through it, as much as anyone can of course, and was talking about how they'd moved on with their lives, managed to re build them and find some peace and happiness, it would have been such a comfort.

That's one of the reasons I'm still here on GN, predominantly taking part in the threads in the estrangement forum and in particular this support thread, which has been running for so many years.

I hope that for those in the early days, weeks, months and even years will find comfort in the knowledge that estrangement isn't the end of our lives, it's the end of a chapter, all be it a very long chapter and heralds the beginning of a new one.

Hi Yogin. (I'm shortening it too).

In all honesty the best way to deal with a narc is to avoid them like the plague...run for the hills, as fast as you can.

However, that is not always possible. The narc might be a family member (in my case my DIL) or a work or business colleague, maybe even a boss. In such cases we have to find a way of coping with them.

There are several approaches - basically all seem to be based on the principle of keeping your head below the parapet and out of the firing line.

I have noticed that recently I have started using a lot of military terms......but then again it is a WAR with them, as Smiles said, it's psychological warfare.

They started the war, but it's up to us how we respond. Some may disagree but as I see it, we can either let them crush us or we can fight back.

However, fighting back is tricky because they are slippery, and we have to be very careful not to make the situation worse. They have no compunction with fighting dirty, they are ruthless and are as relentless as Terminators. The narc is programmed to destroy and they never give up.

So, whilst the best advice is to cut narcs out of your life, end of, psychologists have been developing techniques to try and find ways of helping those of us who cannot simply walk away to try and find ways of dealing with them whilst preserving our sanity and not letting them destroy us.

One such method is "greyrocking" -this means you simply ignore them as much as you can. Basically you try to make yourself invisible and so boring that they lose interest in you and move into the next victim.

To do grey rock you do not make eye contact, you either don't answer when spoken to, or you simply shrug your shoulders and say something like "huh". I actually think this is counter productive because I think it will most likely enrage the narc and bring down a heap of trouble on your head. It will be construed as you being passive aggressive and will just give them more ammunition. I also think that if someone goes grey rock all the time, they are not being their true authentic self and this could be psychologically damaging in the long term.

I prefer the idea of the D.E.E.P. Technique. I think it's less confrontational and it does allow you to keep communication channels open - which in my case with my DIL it is essential if I am to maintain contact with my son and grandchildren.

The D.E.E.P. Techniques means you do NOT.

Defend
Explain
Engage
Personalise

So to explain in a little more depth.

Do not try to DEFEND yourself when they kick off. The situation will only escalate.

Do not try to EXPLAIN ....this is an extension of not defending. The more you try to explain the more they will twist your words, put words into your mouth etc.

Do not ENGAGE with them any more than you have. Keep them at arms length. Keep all conversations on a light superficial level. Stick to "safe" topics. Do not tell them your hopes, plans, dreams, do not tell them anything which they could store up for future use to hurt you. Play your cards close to your chest.

Do not PERSONALISE. I take this to mean two things. The first is do not take things personally. Do not assume it's your fault, it's not you, it's them. And, secondly, do not divulge any personal information about yourself. This could be what you do, who you see, your health and your finances. They will pounce on anything that is personal or important to you and will use it as a weapon against you.

I realise that I am probably starting to sound very devious but Smiles is so right when she says it's psychological warfare. If we want to win the war or even just to survive it with our health and well being intact then we have to tread very carefully and protect ourselves.

Walking away is by far the better option but when it comes to families it is not usually something we feel we can do. We try and try to keep things going, hence the walking on eggshells, the appeasement, and the kowtowing that happens.

Obviously if they estrange us or we reach a situation when we cannot continue and are forced to estrange them, then In such cases all anyone can do is hope that one day things might change and there might be some form of reconciliation.

But, even if the miracle happens, I personally feel that adopting the D.E.E.P. technique might still be a useful tactic in helping navigate sensitive relationships.

The best thing I've found in the last few weeks is the wisdom in the old adage "know thine enemy". I have been quietly doing my research. I have read several books, articles, websites and threads, listened to countless podcasts, trying to learn as much as I can. It has helped me enormously to get my head round it all and hopefully develop a better understanding so that I can cope better with DIL in the future.

However, I'm a realist and, if, as I suspect, full estrangement is DILs true endgame then at least it wont be such a shock next time kicks off. If push comes to shove I am prepared to walk away. Yes I will miss my son to an extent and of course losing contact with my grandchildren would be a bitter pill but I will cut contact if necessary.

Like a samurai warrior...."no fear, no hesitation, no surprise, no doubt".

Thank you for sharing your story Nanalouise. As Whiff has posted, it takes courage to open up and it's painful too, reliving those moments that have and continue to cause pain.

It's great that your son is turning his life around and that you and your dad have re established your relationship. Try not to feel guilty that he missed out. You say you pushed him away because he'd never bothered with you, especially when your sister died.

He should have been there for you and enabled you to be there for one another. The loss of his D would have been traumatic just as it was for you losing your sister. Don't dwell on what was in the past, when it comes to your dad, enjoy the time you now spend together.

So many of us have never been told why our AC have estranged us. There's been no conversation, no attempt to sort things out as walking away seems to be the way to go. It's cowardly and cruel but there's simply nothing we can do about it.

When we were first estranged, our ES saw his paternal GM off an on and she would tell Mr. S. that she'd seen him and our only GC which like you, he found very upsetting.

In the end, following my advice, he told her that he didn't want to talk about him. Didn't want to know how he was, what he was doing or what our GC looked like.

She would sometimes slip up and start talking about him and then he'd just say'no mum I'm not interested'. Maybe this is something you could think about doing with your mum.

He eventually saw virtually nothing of her either, and didn't see her at all in the last 2 years of her life but she had dementia by then so at least wasn't aware of this and so upset by it.

Well hi there Yogin (I'm shortening your name because it's too long and complicated). It's great to hear from you.

Just 5 minutes down the road that's a bummer, I am sorry. Were you planning on moving anyway, or are you moving for the reason we did, to put some physical distance between you?

9 years, can you believe it's been almost 9 years since we were estranged so almost 9 years since we first 'met'. Those were the very darkest of days weren't they, and just a handful of us here on GN holding on to one another and dragging one another along the long and bumpy road of estrangement.

Enjoy reading and post again soon xx

Hello Smileless Good to hear you are doing well x

-QuoteDerbyshireLass Mon 18-Oct-21 12:49:58-
What is DEEP? Like you I wish I had come on here and gathered all the good advise, as on your post above, instead of going down the road I did, from which there is no return.

Like Smiles my 9yrs of estrangement is looming, I've learnt in the last month that they now live just 5mins down the rd. a road I pass often, so I would have preferred not to have that info. Still I'm moving soon, so will not be passing that way when I do.

Rainy day, walkies will have to wait, so I will continue reading.....

Thanks for you kind words whiff my son has no contact with his sister or niece as she’s disengaged with all her family and life long friends apart from her GM who she only sees once a month for a couple of hours as my mother pays for shopping and gives her money. Then my mother loves to text me or phone to say she’s seen DD and how well they are! Although I know she’s met anther boy who’s a drug dealer and also heavily in debt
Unfortunately my GD is only 2 1/2 so she’s probably forgotten us now
Like you I don’t understand it our DD says it’s because of her childhood this has happened but won’t actually say what happened and we have no idea my son says he’s had a good childhood and has always felt loved we’ve always treated them the same
I guess it’s a time thing she’ll either come round or not my DD is only 21 so I’m hopping that we can sort things out before it’s too late.

Elless it wasn't bravery that made me stay in the MRI machine but stubbornness. Also the fact it costs a lot of money to run these tests and all the medical staff are trying to help me. Also I couldn't let my family down by not having it done. If they can fix my heart they can do what they like with me. If it can't be fixed I know I will be monitored and helped. I don't intend to pop my clogs anytime soon. To much I still want to do with my life. I owe it to my husband I promised him I would live the best life I can and I do.

There are only 2 certainties in life we are born and we die. The rest is up to us. It doesn't always work out as we hoped but life has a way of finding good out of the bad. Well that's my experience. I always try and find a positive out of a negative. Sometimes it's something silly but I always manage it.

Have you had your operation or is it soon. I know it has been cancelled if I remember right twice. Hopefully all goes well this time.

Take care

Nanalouise I am glad you found this thread . Telling your story I found is hard. Took me a long time sending Smiles PMs before I could openly post. You are not alone and writing your story is hard and painful . You are dealing with estrangement and your husband's cancer. Just dealing with one of those things is hard but dealing with both makes it all the harder.

I am glad you got your son back and he is sorting himself out. I hope he continues and is a support to you and your husband.

I ramble on so write as much as you like. For me if it wasn't for the understanding ,help and support I get here I wouldn't be as I am now.

You have shown courage sharing your story. And that bravery will help you deal with your husband's cancer.

We had to tell our children when they where 17 and 13 their dad had cancer and wouldn't live 5 years. He lived 3. All that time it felt like living with the sword of Damocles hanging over us just waiting for it to drop.

How old is your granddaughter ? Is she at an age that she can understand her grandad is very ill. You say your daughter left a year ago so she knows her dad has cancer. Hope I have got that right. If it is she was cowardly doing that. We all have to face lifes horrors no matter what they are. And as we get older we have to face more.

But then again my own son knew I was waiting to have a echo on my heart when he decided to throw me away. Which I will never understand as he was always so caring before his email in May.

Like all our stories there is no easy answer or fix. For me my son saying zero contact August last year in his letter has helped me. I miss him and my 3 grandson's greatly but will not be playing any silly games. I will not dance to their tune.

Does your son have anything to do with his sister and niece?

Estrangement is hard . I didn't even know it was called that until I read this thread. But all the hurt my son and daughter in law have caused me is nothing compared to my husband dieing.

As per usual don't know how to end this but just wanted you to know you are not alone.

Thanks for the welcome and the abbreviations now I understand!
Where do I start it’s a long story but in short I’ve had a turbulent relationship with both my parents they split up when my sister and I were 2 and 3 and lived with my mum not seeing my dad for many years then having to live with him and his wife when we were teenagers ( it wasn’t a good time ) I met my DH and had my DS 10 years later. My sister died while pregnant so again not a good time. 2 years later my DD came along and for many years we were a happy normal family until they hit mid teens and found weed! My DS has been kicked out of college for selling lost numerous jobs and we’ve had our home searched by the police. Then our DD went completely off the rails at 17 leaving home to live with homeless druggies we had to involve the police and social services we tried everything to get her to come home but she’d met someone who brainwashed her got her pregnant and moved her 200 miles away we started to see our DD and GD when the baby was 3 months old. Our DD came home once a month for the weekend with our GD and we treated them like princesses after a while I would drive the 200 miles every other weekend to pick up our GD and have just her at ours for the weekend which was lovely eventually DD said she was leaving him and came home with our GD as you can imagine we were ecstatic!! To start it was amazing we were building a beautiful relationship with our GD and DD but after 4 months things started to go wrong she would make an argument out of nothing her anger and temper was terrible I didn’t know how to cope with it really. The last argument was a year ago she left ours taking GD to live with my mother. DD is now in her own home that’s been furnished by my mother and DD wants nothing to do with us she hates us. My mother won’t tell me her address and I feel my mother enables DD to stay away as she’s always giving her money so she doesn’t need our help.
My DS lives with us and has stopped smoking weed and is sorting his life out he’s actually a lovely boy with a good heart. My DH has cancer which he’s been fighting for the last 2 years and is still fighting but he’s very low as our GD brought so much joy and we are missing out on so much as she is too. The thing is I’ve done the same to both my mother and father. I can easily go 1 or 2 years without seeing my mum as she’s very nasty and bitter but I keep trying to have a relationship with her although it’s near impossible. I hadn’t seen my dad for over 20 years because he never bothered with me especially after my sister died. I felt it was better to push him away so he couldn’t hurt me anymore. I’ve recently connected with him again and we have a good relationship I feel terrible that he’s missed out on his DC because I now know what it feels like to be estranged from my DD.
Sorry it wasn’t so short after all.

If you'd been on here nearly 9 years ago you'd have seen that I was far from strong Elless. I was a wreck.

I was either a blubbering mess or in a murderous rage. It took time to be something in between and even longer to get to where I am today.

You are strong. You're strong because you get up, get washed and get dressed every day. You're strong because you share your pain and you give as much support to all of here as you receive.

You're like a whirl wind DerbyshireLass.

Hi Nanalouise.

Welcome to the club none of us want to be a member of. I'm glad that reading sling has helped you. I know it's not the solution to our woes but a little to know that we are not alone.

A miserable day here so haven't set foot out the door but I've the time to good use.

The great declutter begins in earnest now, so I've listed some items on ebay and I rang our local YMCA to donate some furniture. They will pick it up next week.

It's a start.

Brilliant advice as usual, I wish I could be as strong as you regulars on here, it is marvellous how you all cope.
Well done Whiff with your MRI, you were so brave. I could not have done it, I've had them done in the past and wore my night time eye mask so I was totally oblivious to the size of the 'tunnel' but I forgot my mask once and when I saw how close it actually was I lost my bottle. I desperately need another MRI on my back but my doctors aren't prepared to pay for an open one so I won't have it done.

Hi Nanalouise and a very warm welcome to our support thread.

EAC = estranged adult child

DS = dear son
DD = dear daughter
of course our estranged AC (adult child or children) remain dear to us, but this helps differentiate between them

DH = dear husband
s.i.l. - son in law
d.i.l. = daughter in law
GC = grand child/ren
GP = grand parent
EP = estranged parent
EGP = estranged grand parent
GM = grand mother
GF = grand father

Goodness, there's rather a lot isn't there but you'll soon get used to them. When I'm referring to my husband I put Mr. S. so you could use Mr. N.

We don't use names to protect identities.

I'm glad that simply reading the posts here has made you and your husband realise you're not alone. We're a friendly and caring bunch who'll understand how you're feeling so it would be good to hear from you again, when you're ready.

Hi I’m new to GN and have been reading lots of your posts it makes me and my husband realise we are not alone. I wonder if you could let me know what the abbreviations mean? As I guess we don’t use names.

Such wise words and such brilliant examples of how to deal with all this. Knocked out with fatigue atm but so happy to see you all doing well. x

Whiff.....good to see you are getting such great medical care, you have been through so much, you deserve the chance to heal now and get fitter and stronger. You are so right we must NOT let our EACs make us ill.

I agree one of the hardest aspects in all this is our sons refusal to listen to us or discuss any of the issues, instead only heeding the poison that comes from the mouths of their wives and partners. It is grossly unjust. It's all about them isn't it. Our feelings are as nought.

Is it cowardice, because surely deep down they must know the truth. They know how we lived, what they lives were like. My son has even commented on his happy childhood, saying that he wants to recreate the same experience for his own children. Fat chance. Of course that was before he married Madam. I wonder if he has realised yet that all that is now just an empty pipe dream.

Well I have to tell you.......I had a real chuckle tonight. Smiles hit the nail on the head, my son is confused. Very. He just sent me a text......and I can sense his discomfort and bewilderment. Why am I not begging and pleading to see him. Why am I being so cool and detached. Why am I so damned happy. ??

Some background......I mentioned that I didn't tell him who I went to the cinema with......

Well I went with my other son, his lovely girlfriend, her sister and her mum. It was a lovely family gathering, coffee, cake and a catch up natter first and then the film. And boy has it rattled him.

I didn't tell my son, not because I was afraid of his reaction or that I was being deliberately secretive or spiteful but simply because he didn't ask. He wasn't interested enough to even bother enquiring.

For some time now I've noticed that he has become very self centred and self absorbed. He expresses zero interest in my doings. If I do mention something his eyes glaze over and he can't wait to change the subject. He only becomes animated if I talk about him, his interests or the children. Obviously I bore him rigid and I am not worthy of his attention.

So I thought "sod you, if you can't be bothered to ask about my life then I won't volunteer any information. You can remain in the dark".

As you know my ES hasn't been answering his brothers texts or returning his phone calls. Second son decided to give it another try tonight and at long last received a reply. (I think ES finally answered because he was purely fishing......trying to find out what's going on, why am I not responding the way he expects me to, why am I not grovelling).

They had a brief chat and that's when the youngest told ES that he had taken me to the cinema. I can just imagine how that went down because judging from the sycophantic text I then received from ES his conscience is now troubling him. He feels uncomfortable and guilty. And rightly so. I have no sympathy for his discomfort, he damn well should feel guilty. ??

Yes Smiles. It is psychological warfare. I didn't start this war but I will make sure that I am the one to finish it. Our offspring think they know us but they don't. They haven't a clue really have they. They forget we gave them life, we have a head start on them, we know what makes them tick. And increasingly, by paying careful attention to my DIL, I am getting a much better understanding of how she works too.

The funny thing is, despite them being so intelligent and well educated and high falutin neither my son nor my DIL are that street smart. In many ways my son is incredibly naive and my DIL isn't nearly so clever as she likes to think she is. Her arrogant pride means she makes a lot of mistakes. She thinks her position is unassailable and it makes her careless.

I do sometimes wonder if the mistake some of us have made with our EAC is that we made their lives too easy because so many of them do seem to lack gumption, grit or resilience. When the going gets tough they throw in the towel and walk away. It's so much easier for them to shift all the blame onto their parents rather than taking ownership of their problems and acting like grown ups.

My feeling is that our narcissistic DILs will do the same to their marriages as they have done to us. They will drain their victims (our sons) life force, and sooner or later discard them and move on to the next poor unsuspecting victim.

Whiff don't worry I rattle on too. I've always been a chatterbox. And It feels good to be able to vent a little on here. You all "get it". I don't feel silly either. I find writing it all down really helps clear my head. Helps me think straight.

So from me too, a big thanks for all your patience and kindness....... I really appreciate having this safe space.

Having dealt with my in laws from when I started going out with my husband in 1975 until his mother's death in 2015. Taught me that you can't win with some people . So we just walked away. But because my husband never gave up on them we went back every week. I continued with his mom. And that was people I hated for all those years.

When my son said zero contact in that letter in August last year he has got it. I often wonder if they thought I would try and contact them but I haven't. As I said before zero contact is fine by me. I didn't rip the family apart they did.

I miss them terribly but it's up to them if they want me. I will never contact them. And coming to that decision has made my life easier. I had enough with my in laws. My son knows what a bad mother, mother in law and grandmother is he knew his father's mother. And to tar me with the same brush is laughable.

My grandson's are unfortunately the losers in all this. The 2 eldest loved being with me.

But there's an old saying you reap what you sow. One day they will have to deal the partners my grandson's choose. Wonder how they will feel if their children treat them the way they have treated me and our side of the family.

Smiles we never had the chance to answer our sons accusations. Because they knew full well all they accused us of is lies . They expected us to crumble but we have showed them we are stronger than they thought. They thought they could use and abuse us and we would just do anything to have them back. Bet they had a shock when we didn't do what they expected us to do.

My husband dieing broke my heart and it has never healed but I have made a life for myself. I couldn't let him down. A broken heart can't be broken again. So it got a bit bent because of my son but its back to how it was .

I am lucky I have family and friends who love and care for me. And who I love and care for.

I haven't got time for someone who doesn't want me. I can not afford to get ill. I have enough health problems which I am coping really well with.

I love my new life here . I have done things in the last 2 years I never thought I could. I love the fact I found me again. And the people I have met like me. So I can't be such an awful person.

We are survivors all on here. It may not seem like it at times but we are. Having eachother makes us stronger . And having a voice here means we don't have to bottle things up. And I know full well I ramble on and repeat myself but you know what I don't feel silly being here . Because if you met me in real life I am exactly the same.
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